The interpretation of the 8 precepts

[starter]

Hi Friends,

After reading the following teaching in DN2, I realized any means of beautification is forbidden for a monk/nun as a means of sense restraint:

"Whereas some brahmans and contemplatives, living off food given in faith, are addicted to scents, cosmetics, and means of beautification such as these — rubbing powders into the body, massaging with oils, bathing in perfumed water, kneading the limbs, using mirrors, ointments, garlands, scents, creams, face-powders, mascara, bracelets, head-bands, decorated walking sticks, ornamented water-bottles, swords, fancy sunshades, decorated sandals, turbans, gems, yak-tail whisks, long-fringed white robes — he abstains from using scents, cosmetics, and means of beautification such as these. This, too, is part of his virtue."

Or probably it's not only for a monk/nun, but also for lay practitioners who hold the 8 precepts (e.g. on Uposatha days)? Should the above-listed things be all included in the 7th precept? I thought the use of mirror and creams are not only for beautification, but also for social appropriateness and health. Probably it's up to one's intention?

I also have a little trouble with the 8th precept: "He abstains from high and luxurious beds and seats" and the practice of sleeping on the floor. I guess the ancient Indian high beds and seats must be very luxurious. That's why the Buddha associated these two together. From the perspective of health and safety, it would be better to sleep on a bed with certain height instead of on the floor. I suppose it's again up to one's intention?

A little more trouble with the 6th precept: "He eats only once a day, refraining from the evening meal and from food at the wrong time of day (after noon?)." I think this teaching is for monastics or the lay in retreats, not for working lay practitioners. Otherwise we'll have to eat a lot during that one meal in order to have enough energy to work for the rest of the day, which might not be so healthy. Refraining from food after noon could be impractical for some working lay practitioners who might have to work before and during the noon hours and can only have lunch in the afternoon.

Well, at the end it's a matter of purifying the mind. I guess some formats might not be so important, as long as we have right intention and have no attachments to sensual indulgence? But these are the Buddha's requirements, the precepts, our sacred vows ...

Starter

[Bhikkhu Pesala]

The eight precepts for lay people are intended to be observed on Uposatha days or during retreats. While working, it is better to observe the eight precepts with right livelihood as the eighth if you are able to do so.

The seventh Uposatha day precept includes not using cosmetics, perfumes, jewellery, and other means of beautification, such as fashionable clothing. Wearing white clothes is customary, but other plain colours may be more practical. The point is not to attract attention to oneself.

Sleeping on the floor or on an ordinary bed without an interior sprung mattress meets the requirements to avoid high and luxurious beds. In Mahasi Yeiktha the meditators use beds raised off of the floor to avoid creepy-crawlies, but they have just a thin straw mat for padding. No comfort is gained from that.

[LonesomeYogurt]

The post above pretty much sums up anything I could say (and a lot more too) but on the subject of mirrors, I feel like there were probably fewer mirrors in the Buddha's time so the act of looking into one was a deliberate beautification attempt. I don't think just like walking by a mirror during your daily life or seeing your reflection in and of itself is a violation of that at all so long as you don't spend time beautifying yourself.

Just my thoughts! Otherwise the Venerable one above has much more to say

[squarepeg]

All 8 percepts are possible to 99% of people. Sense restraint around music and television, and allowing minor transgressions (glancing and singing) to be noted and fall from mind keep faith from waining. Eating only before noon means you wake up earlyer and appriciate those who suffer to create the food you eat. also the body doesnt need more than one regular meal a day, regardless of what people say it simply dosent need more than one meal a day even if your doing heavy construction work, stay hydrated by drinking alot of water and the body will live, hunger is mental and the more you meditate the less these things affect the mind. In my opinion, these percepts force one to schedule everything but meditation, so that all free time is for meditating and cultivation. We have to be strict on our selfs. Otherwise how do we expect to be a "field of merit" to anyone else?

[starter]

Hello friends,

Many thanks for your input. In comparison to your effort on sense restraint, I'm ashamed of myself for not being able to go against will/desire and for lack of power to control mind. Indeed I can go to bed early and wake up early, so that I can eat before 12. If we regard these 8 precepts as means of practicing sense restraint and mind control, then it's quite meaningful. Metta to all,

Starter

[nameless]

regardless of what people say it simply dosent need more than one meal a day even if your doing heavy construction work

Are you speaking from experience?

[squarepeg]

Are you speaking from experience?

My job consists of light construction work, i havent had much trouble keeping the 6th percept. All i want is to offer the view point that it is still a possiblility in this day and age to keep the 8 percepts as a lay person.

[Cittasanto]

Or probably it's not only for a monk/nun, but also for lay practitioners who hold the 8 precepts (e.g. on Uposatha days)? Should the above-listed things be all included in the 7th precept? I thought the use of mirror and creams are not only for beautification, but also for social appropriateness and health. Probably it's up to one's intention?

well the precept is quite clearly meaning cosmetics for beautification, not creams for dry skin, or medical reasons.
the basis is renouncing the need to rely on things to make oneself beautiful, as virtue is a Beauty unmatched by physical appearances, the ability to leg go of a form of self, a crux to hide behind, I am sure you would of met someone who is nothing but there looks, shallow and nothing without there makeup cloths...

I also have a little trouble with the 8th precept: "He abstains from high and luxurious beds and seats" and the practice of sleeping on the floor. I guess the ancient Indian high beds and seats must be very luxurious. That's why the Buddha associated these two together. From the perspective of health and safety, it would be better to sleep on a bed with certain height instead of on the floor. I suppose it's again up to one's intention?

The rule is not about sleeping on the floor, it is about having more than you need!
The rule for the monks dictate a maximum hight, and some say this is 65cm, but the rule of thumb I use is if you can use it as a chair with your upper legs fully on the bed, and your feet flat on the floor it is not to high, but the hight is only referring to the legs, not the mattress also.

A little more trouble with the 6th precept: "He eats only once a day, refraining from the evening meal and from food at the wrong time of day (after noon?)." I think this teaching is for monastics or the lay in retreats, not for working lay practitioners. Otherwise we'll have to eat a lot during that one meal in order to have enough energy to work for the rest of the day, which might not be so healthy. Refraining from food after noon could be impractical for some working lay practitioners who might have to work before and during the noon hours and can only have lunch in the afternoon.

the allowable period to eat is between dawn and noon, although some use the clock and the winter time, adding an hour for summer time, so 12:00 in winter an 13:00 in summer.
we normally take far to much food, and it is more than possible to eat a good sized meal and breakfast and have enough nutrition to live properly on, but life situation and needs should always be considered, remember this is one day a week, not everyday.
If you are planning to do this everyday keep an eye on your weight it should level out at a point, but if it goes to low for comfort take more, simple.
I leveled out at 11.5St, and by the bmi I should be about 13.4St it was a managable weight and I felt good.

Well, at the end it's a matter of purifying the mind. I guess some formats might not be so important, as long as we have right intention and have no attachments to sensual indulgence? But these are the Buddha's requirements, the precepts, our sacred vows ...

Try just practising the aspects of the eightfold path!