Sex, Drugs & Precepts 3 & 5

[Yana]

Yana is having sex with your husband unskilful behaviour?
is looking at your wifes naked body unskilful?
Is enjoying a beautiful sunset unskilful?
Is liking the taste of some foods unskilful?

i don't understand why your asking me all these questions?
I said looking at dirty pictures on the internet while masturbating is unskillfull.I'm not refering to anything other than looking at dirty pictures on the internet while masturbating is unskillfull.

[Dan74]

I think that all of the replies above are right and many good points are being made here.

I would consider them carefully, openly and thoughtfully.

As for porn, etc - we've had threads on that already. Suffice it to say that guilt is counter-productive. Best to examine attentively for oneself: what does it really feel like? Does this lead to wholesome states of mind. Just like with everything else.

That way we broaden and deepen our awareness which makes it easy to let go.

[Ben]

Yana,
What is a "dirty" picture?
kind regards,

Ben

[Yana]

Yana,
What is a "dirty" picture?
kind regards,

Ben

Hi Ben ..i was using the term (dirty picture) used by the original poster.

To me personally a "dirty" picture would mean any sexually explicit pictures used to indulge in sexual pleasures at the expense of another human being being degraded or exploited.

I would call that dirty.

I don't think that looking at sexual pictures of someone you love and are in a relationship is dirty because they are not suffering when they do that.

I mean this is just what i think..it''s how i view "dirty"..i don't know if it's right or wrong..and ofcourse i don't mean to make Anybody feel guilty.. i mean we've all been there..well i know i have..and it just made me sad.Very sad.

[Kim O'Hara]

Just thought I would note that everyone seems to be missing something about this quote (posted earlier):

Before turning to our main theme, it is as well to have some idea of the sexual mores of ancient India in the Buddha's time. Gotama himself, as a prince, was brought up surrounded by concubines and dancing-girls as a matter of course. Polygamy was common. Ambapali, the courtesan from whom the Buddha accepted gifts, was a person of some consequence. It was not expected that young men would lead a life of much restraint, and the Buddha with his profound understanding of human nature knew well what demands to make of people in this respect. Thus we find the following formulation of what a man should avoid:
He avoids unlawful sexual intercourse, abstains from it. He has no intercourse with girls who are still under the protection of father or mother, brother, sister, or relative; nor with married women, nor female convicts; nor lastly with betrothed girls.

source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el225.html

Women in ancient India were explicitly under male control, perhaps amounting almost to male ownership, in a way which is strange to most of us but was absolutely normal in biblical society (remember the bit about not coveting the neighbour's wife or ox or ass?) and in Western society until relatively recently (when were American women first allowed to own property in their own right? to vote?). That makes the bolded rule in the above quote roughly equivalent to, "He stays off other men's property."



Kim

[Yana]

Just thought I would note that everyone seems to be missing something about this quote (posted earlier):

Before turning to our main theme, it is as well to have some idea of the sexual mores of ancient India in the Buddha's time. Gotama himself, as a prince, was brought up surrounded by concubines and dancing-girls as a matter of course. Polygamy was common. Ambapali, the courtesan from whom the Buddha accepted gifts, was a person of some consequence. It was not expected that young men would lead a life of much restraint, and the Buddha with his profound understanding of human nature knew well what demands to make of people in this respect. Thus we find the following formulation of what a man should avoid:
He avoids unlawful sexual intercourse, abstains from it. He has no intercourse with girls who are still under the protection of father or mother, brother, sister, or relative; nor with married women, nor female convicts; nor lastly with betrothed girls.

source: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el225.html

Women in ancient India were explicitly under male control, perhaps amounting almost to male ownership, in a way which is strange to most of us but was absolutely normal in biblical society (remember the bit about not coveting the neighbour's wife or ox or ass?) and in Western society until relatively recently (when were American women first allowed to own property in their own right? to vote?). That makes the bolded rule in the above quote roughly equivalent to, "He stays off other men's property."



Kim

oh i didn't know that!...thank you Kim..helps me see it through their perspective!

[Kim O'Hara]

oh i didn't know that!...thank you Kim..helps me see it through their perspective!

Hello, Yana,
It isn't nice but it is important.
If we don't know, or choose to ignore, the differences between societies we can make some serious mistakes.


Kim

[reflection]

It's not about what the precepts say (or what the culture was), it is how we feel about the precepts. The precepts are not rules; they are guidelines. We have to look inside to see how they could apply in our life. If we feel ok about lying for example, we will probably not stop it nomatter what a precept says. However, if we reflect on it and see the downsides of it, we will probably lessen it. It will not totally stop in one step; the precepts evolve in our life.

The same with drugs and sex. At first we might stop doing the extremes, but when they evolve when we are on the path, we may also tend to stop with any drink and/or masturbation & pornography. However, it is personal and so there is no clear line between what you should and shouldn't do.

Aside from that, both drinking and sexual activity are sensual desires.. they will never fullfill us.

[Ben]

It's not about what the precepts say (or what the culture was), it is how we feel about the precepts. The precepts are not rules; they are guidelines. We have to look inside to see how they could apply in our life. If we feel ok about lying for example, we will probably not stop it nomatter what a precept says. However, if we reflect on it and see the downsides of it, we will probably lessen it. It will not totally stop in one step; the precepts evolve in our life.

The same with drugs and sex. At first we might stop doing the extremes, but when they evolve when we are on the path, we may also tend to stop with any drink and/or masturbation & pornography. However, it is personal and so there is no clear line between what you should and shouldn't do.

Aside from that, both drinking and sexual activity are sensual desires.. they will never fullfill us.

Well, there is a lot to be said for sense restraint.
kind regards,

Ben

[reflection]

Yes of course, but if we don't understand ourselves why it will be useful, it will not make a lot of sense. That's why we should not take the Buddha's words as a law, but investigate them ourselves. When we do that, the discussions of what he actually meant also become less important because we can rely on our own judgement.