SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

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SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:51 am

SN 12.23 PTS: S ii 29 CDB i 553
Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions
translated from the Pali by Bhikkhu Bodhi


The Buddha explains how seeing deeply into dependent co-arising leads to Awakening. The causal chain here includes an additional set of factors not present in the "standard" chain of dependent co-arising.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html

While staying at Savatthi the Exalted One said:

"The destruction of the cankers, monks, is for one who knows and sees, I say, not for one who does not know and does not see. Knowing what, seeing what does the destruction of the cankers occur? 'Such is material form, such is the arising of material form, such is the passing away of material form. Such is feeling... perception... mental formations... consciousness; such is the arising of consciousness, such is the passing away of consciousness' — for one who knows and sees this, monks, the destruction of the cankers occurs.

"The knowledge of destruction with respect to destruction has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge of destruction? 'Emancipation' should be the reply.

"Emancipation, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for emancipation? 'Dispassion' should be the reply.

"Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment' should be the reply.

"Disenchantment, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for disenchantment? 'The knowledge and vision of things as they really are' should be the reply.

"The knowledge and vision of things as they really are, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are? 'Concentration' should be the reply.

"Concentration, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for concentration? 'Happiness' should be the reply.

"Happiness, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for happiness? 'Tranquillity' should be the reply.

"Tranquillity, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for tranquillity? 'Rapture' should be the reply.

"Rapture, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for rapture? 'Joy' should be the reply.

"Joy, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for joy? 'Faith' should be the reply.

"Faith, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for faith? 'Suffering' should be the reply.

"Suffering, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for suffering? 'Birth' should be the reply.

"And what is the supporting condition for birth?. 'Existence' should be the reply.

"What is the supporting condition for existence? 'Clinging' should be the reply.

"What is the supporting condition for clinging? 'Craving' should be the reply.

"What is the supporting condition for craving? 'Feeling' should be the reply.

"What is the supporting condition for feeling? 'Contact' should be the reply.

"What is the supporting condition for contact? 'The sixfold sense base' should be the reply.

"What is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base? 'Mentality-materiality' should be the reply.

"What is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality? 'Consciousness' should be the reply.

"What is the supporting condition for consciousness? 'Kamma formations' should be the reply.

"Kamma formations, monks, also have a supporting condition, I say, they do not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for kamma formations? 'Ignorance' should be the reply.

"Thus, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers).

"Just as, monks, when rain descends heavily upon some mountaintop, the water flows down along with the slope, and fills the clefts, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the ponds; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and the rivers being filled fill up the great ocean — in the same way, monks, ignorance is the supporting condition for kamma formations, kamma formations are the supporting condition for consciousness, consciousness is the supporting condition for mentality-materiality, mentality-materiality is the supporting condition for the sixfold sense base, the sixfold sense base is the supporting condition for contact, contact is the supporting condition for feeling, feeling is the supporting condition for craving, craving is the supporting condition for clinging, clinging is the supporting condition for existence, existence is the supporting condition for birth, birth is the supporting condition for suffering, suffering is the supporting condition for faith, faith is the supporting condition for joy, joy is the supporting condition for rapture, rapture is the supporting condition for tranquillity, tranquillity is the supporting condition for happiness, happiness is the supporting condition for concentration, concentration is the supporting condition for the knowledge and vision of things as they really are, the knowledge and vision of things as they really are is the supporting condition for disenchantment, disenchantment is the supporting condition for dispassion, dispassion is the supporting condition for emancipation, and emancipation is the supporting condition for the knowledge of the destruction (of the cankers)."

See also: Transcendental Dependent Arising A Translation and Exposition of the Upanisa Sutta
by Bhikkhu Bodhi
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el277.html
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:54 am

SN 12.23 PTS: S ii 29 CDB i 553
Upanisa Sutta: Prerequisites
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Dwelling at Savatthi... "Monks, the ending of the effluents is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what is there the ending of effluents? 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such is perception, such its origination, such its disappearance. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their disappearance. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.' The ending of the effluents is for one who knows in this way & sees in this way.

"The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is the prerequisite for the knowledge of ending? Release, it should be said. Release has its prerequisite, I tell you. It is not without a prerequisite. And what is its prerequisite? Dispassion... Disenchantment... Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present... Concentration... Pleasure... Serenity... Rapture... Joy... Conviction... Stress... Birth... Becoming... Clinging... Craving... Feeling... Contact... The six sense media... Name-&-form... Consciousness... Fabrications... Fabrications have their prerequisite, I tell you. They are not without a prerequisite. And what is their prerequisite? Ignorance, it should be said.

"Thus fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as its prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.

"Just as when the gods pour rain in heavy drops & crash thunder on the upper mountains: The water, flowing down along the slopes, fills the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies. When the mountain clefts & rifts & gullies are full, they fill the little ponds. When the little ponds are full, they fill the big lakes. When the big lakes are full, they fill the little rivers. When the little rivers are full, they fill the big rivers. When the big rivers are full, they fill the great ocean. In the same way:

"Fabrications have ignorance as their prerequisite, consciousness has fabrications as its prerequisite, name-&-form has consciousness as their prerequisite, the six sense media have name-&-form as their prerequisite, contact has the six sense media as its prerequisite, feeling has contact as its prerequisite, craving has feeling as its prerequisite, clinging has craving as its prerequisite, becoming has clinging as its prerequisite, birth has becoming as its prerequisite, stress & suffering have birth as their prerequisite, conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite."
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 9:04 am

SN 12.23 PTS: S ii 29 CDB i 553
Upanisaa Sutta: Upanisaa (excerpt)
translated from the Pali by Maurice O'Connell Walshe


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .wlsh.html

1] [At Saavatthii the Blessed One said:]

"Monks, I declare that the destruction of the cankers[2] comes for him who knows and sees, and not for him who does not know and does not see. By knowing what, by seeing what, does the destruction of the cankers come about? 'Such is material form, such is its arising, such is its passing away; such is feeling... such is perception... such are the mental formations... such is consciousness, such is its arising, such is its passing away': for him who knows this, for him who sees this, the destruction of the cankers comes about.

"Regarding this knowledge of destruction, I declare that there is a supporting condition without which it does not arise...[3] What is this supporting condition? Liberation... Liberation has a supporting condition...: Dispassion... Dispassion has a supporting condition...: Disenchantment... Disenchantment has a supporting condition...: Knowledge-and-vision-of-things-as-they-are... Knowledge-and-vision-of-things-as-they-are has a supporting condition...: Concentration... Concentration has a supporting condition...: Happiness... Happiness has a supporting condition...: Tranquillity... Tranquillity has a supporting condition...: Rapture...[4] Rapture has a supporting condition...: Joy... Joy has a supporting condition...: Faith...[5] Faith has a supporting condition...: Suffering...[6] Suffering has a supporting condition...: Birth...[7] Becoming... Grasping... Craving... Feeling... Contact... the Six Sense-Bases... Name-and-Form... Consciousness... the (kamma-) formations... Ignorance...

"Thus, monks, Ignorance is the supporting condition for the (kamma-) formations [etc. to] Birth. Birth for Suffering, Suffering for Faith, Faith for Joy, Joy for Delight, Delight for Tranquillity, Tranquillity for Happiness, Happiness for Concentration, Concentration for Knowledge-and-vision-of-things-as-they-are, Knowledge-and-vision-of-things-as-they-are for Disenchantment, Disenchantment for Dispassion, Dispassion for Liberation, Liberation for Knowledge of the destruction of the cankers."

Notes

1. The final part of this very important sutta is translated as No. 19 in Vol. I of this anthology.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... passage-19
    "Bhikkhus, when it is raining heavily on a mountain-top the water, flowing down the slope, fills the mountain grottos, clefts and gullies, these being filled the small hollows are filled, these being filled the lakes are filled, these being filled the streams are filled, these being filled the large rivers are filled, these being filled the great sea, the ocean, is filled.

    "Similarly, bhikkhus, ignorance is the condition[39] for volitional activities, volitional activities are the condition for consciousness, consciousness is the condition for mind-and-body, mind-and-body is the condition for the sixfold sense-field, the sixfold sense-field is the condition for contact, contact is the condition for feeling, feeling is the condition for craving, craving is the condition for grasping, grasping is the condition for becoming, becoming is the condition for birth, birth is the condition for suffering, suffering is the condition for faith, faith is the condition for gladness, gladness is the condition for joy,[40] joy is the condition for tranquility, tranquility is the condition for bliss, bliss is the condition for concentration,[41] concentration is the condition for knowledge and clear-seeing according to actuality, knowledge and clear-seeing according to actuality is the condition for disenchantment,[42] disenchantment is the condition for detachment, detachment is the condition for liberation and liberation is the condition for knowledge of exhaustion."[43]

    Notes:
    [39] Uparisaa: support, cause, means, reason, condition, motive.
    [40]Piiti: joy, rapture, ecstasy, thrilling pleasure. It is an important factor that arises in meditation practice.
    [41]Samaadhi: concentration, unification or one-pointedness of mind.
    [42]Nibbidaa: the state of ceasing to be infatuated with conditioned existence
    [43]Knowledge of exhaustion (khaye-ñaaya) is the knowledge of final liberation of the Arahant or Perfected One, expressed in the words: "Exhausted (finished) is birth, lived is the holy life, done is what had to be done, there is no more of this or that state" (cf. no. 21). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... passage-21
See now also Bhikkhu Bodhi, Transcendental Dependent Arising (WH 277-8, 1980). http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el277.html

2. AAsavaa From aa-savati "flows towards" (i.e., either "into" or "out" towards the observer), thus lit. either "influx" or "secretion." The most generally accepted translation today is "cankers." [Another meaning is "fermentation," hence "intoxicants" is a possible alternative rendering.] The four cankers are those of (1) sense-desire (kaamaasava) (2) desire for continued existence (bhavaasava) (3) wrong views (di.t.thiaasava: cf. SN 12.15, n. 1 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn12/sn12.015.wlsh.html#fn-1]): and (4) ignorance (avijjaasava) though (3) is often omitted, being doubtless included in (4). The destruction of the cankers is equivalent to Arahantship, and an Arahant is sometimes called khiinaasava.

3. Upanisaa: a word of various meanings: "support, cause, means," etc. Formally it looks like the Pali equivalent of upani.sad, but it may be a contraction of upanissaya "decisive support" in the list of the 24 Conditions (see BD [Buddhist Dictionary by Ven. Nyanatiloka (2nd ed. by Ven. Nyanaponika, Colombo 1972)], s. v. Paccaya). It is glossed in SA [SN Commentary] as kaara.na "cause," paccaya "condition."

4. Piiti. A particularly difficult word to translate. Like passadhi "tranquillity," but unlike sukha "happiness," it belongs to a group of mental formations (sankhaarakhandha), and ranges from "interest" through "zest" to "rapture." The five degrees of piiti are described in VM IV, 94-99 (in Ven. Ñaa.namoli's translation of the text piiti is rendered "happiness" and sukha "bliss").

5. Saddhaa. This is not blind faith but confidence in the Buddha and his teaching.

6. Dukkha stands here for the usual "decay-and-death" (Jaraa-mara.na) or, in full, "decay, death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief and despair" (jaraa-mara.na-soka-parideva-dukkha-domanassupaayaasa).

7. Jaati. All the rest, down to "ignorance" as in the usual formula of Dependent Origination. See Vol. I, nn. 29-30.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#fn-29
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Tue Mar 06, 2012 2:25 pm

mikenz66 wrote:.... conviction has stress & suffering as its prerequisite, joy has conviction as its prerequisite, rapture has joy as its prerequisite, serenity has rapture as its prerequisite, pleasure has serenity as its prerequisite, concentration has pleasure as its prerequisite, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite, disenchantment has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present as its prerequisite, dispassion has disenchantment as its prerequisite, release has dispassion as its prerequisite, knowledge of ending has release as its prerequisite.


Thanks, this is a really good sequence. Do you think there any is relationship here with the 4 tetrads of the Anapanasati Sutta, or with the rupa-jhanas?

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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 06, 2012 7:01 pm

Thanks Spiny

Anapanasati:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"[1] Breathing in long, he discerns, 'I am breathing in long'; or breathing out long, he discerns, 'I am breathing out long.' [2] Or breathing in short, he discerns, 'I am breathing in short'; or breathing out short, he discerns, 'I am breathing out short.' [3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the entire body.'[2] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the entire body.' [4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming bodily fabrication.'[3] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming bodily fabrication.'

"[5] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to rapture.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to rapture.' [6] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to pleasure.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to pleasure.' [7] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to mental fabrication.'[4] He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to mental fabrication.' [8] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in calming mental fabrication.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out calming mental fabrication.'

"[9] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in sensitive to the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out sensitive to the mind.' [10] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in satisfying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out satisfying the mind.' [11] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in steadying the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out steadying the mind.' [12] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in releasing the mind.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out releasing the mind.'[5]

"[13] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on inconstancy.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on inconstancy.' [14] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on dispassion [literally, fading].' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on dispassion.' [15] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on cessation.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on cessation.' [16] He trains himself, 'I will breathe in focusing on relinquishment.' He trains himself, 'I will breathe out focusing on relinquishment.'


Jhana boilerplate:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dham ... jhana.html
The definition (with similes)
[First jhana]

"There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters and remains in the first jhana: rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought and evaluation. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal.

"Just as if a skilled bathman or bathman's apprentice would pour bath powder into a brass basin and knead it together, sprinkling it again and again with water, so that his ball of bath powder — saturated, moisture-laden, permeated within and without — would nevertheless not drip; even so, the monk permeates, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of withdrawal. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born from withdrawal...
[Second jhana]

"Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters and remains in the second jhana: rapture and pleasure born of composure, unification of awareness free from directed thought and evaluation — internal assurance. He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure.

"Just like a lake with spring-water welling up from within, having no inflow from east, west, north, or south, and with the skies periodically supplying abundant showers, so that the cool fount of water welling up from within the lake would permeate and pervade, suffuse and fill it with cool waters, there being no part of the lake unpervaded by the cool waters; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the rapture and pleasure born of composure. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by rapture and pleasure born of composure...
[Third jhana]

"And furthermore, with the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.' He permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture.

"Just as in a blue-, white-, or red-lotus pond, there may be some of the blue, white, or red lotuses which, born and growing in the water, stay immersed in the water and flourish without standing up out of the water, so that they are permeated and pervaded, suffused and filled with cool water from their roots to their tips, and nothing of those blue, white, or red lotuses would be unpervaded with cool water; even so, the monk permeates and pervades, suffuses and fills this very body with the pleasure divested of rapture. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded with pleasure divested of rapture...
[Fourth jhana]

"And furthermore, with the abandoning of pleasure and stress — as with the earlier disappearance of elation and distress — he enters and remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity and mindfulness, neither-pleasure-nor-pain. He sits, permeating the body with a pure, bright awareness, so that there is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness.

"Just as if a man were sitting wrapped from head to foot with a white cloth so that there would be no part of his body to which the white cloth did not extend; even so, the monk sits, permeating his body with a pure, bright awareness. There is nothing of his entire body unpervaded by pure, bright awareness."

— AN 5.28
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby Sam Vara » Tue Mar 06, 2012 8:33 pm

I find this one of the most impressive of the suttas on dependent origination. There are a number of intriguing aspects.

1) When we ask what it is that we need to know and see for the destruction of the cankers/effluents, the answer is "Such is material form, such is the arising, such is the passing away...", and so on with the other khandas. The "such" is interesting. Does it point to the sutta being context-bound, in the sense that the knowing and seeing of the khandas is understood to be in line with what the Buddha has elsewhere said? "That they are such....that they are as I have already told you...". Or, is it an invitation to know material form here and now, with an emphasis on what it is, its arising, and its passing away?

2) Bhikkhu Bodhi and Thanissaro use an odd expression about the destruction of the cankers, which Walshe omits. Bhikkhu Bodhi reads it

The knowledge of destruction with respect to destruction
'

and Thanissaro as

The knowledge of ending in the presence of ending


I take it that this is a reminder that we are not talking about annihilation here. It is not that the whole show ends, taking the cankers with it. The cankers are destroyed, but there is knowledge of their ending which outlives them.

3) Bhikkhu Bodhi's "supporting condition" and Thanissaro's "prerequisite" is beautifully intensified by Walshe into "supporting condition without which it does not arise". We are talking about a necessary, as opposed to a sufficient, condition here. Indeed, we know that the links cannot be sufficient conditions, as ignorance would lead inexorably to destruction of the effluents if this were so. (In some other Suttas, where the practice is being delineated, the links are of sufficiency rather than necessity....) We need to add something to the mix, presumably, and one of the beauties of this Sutta is that it calls upon us to act by merely stating the way things are.
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:09 pm

Hi Sam,
Sam Vega wrote:I find this one of the most impressive of the suttas on dependent origination. There are a number of intriguing aspects.

I need to think about the questions you raise.

Meantime, I have some comments. The supporting conditions in this sutta condition where the common 12-link formualtion stops (at dukkha), and proceeds:
    Ignorance
    ...
    Suffering
    Faith
    Joy
    Rapture
    Tranquility
    Happiness
    Concentration
    The knowledge and vision of things as they really are
    Disenchantment
    Dispassion
    Emancipation
We've seen other suttas where that elaborate on the middle areas:
    contact
    feeling
    other stuff, such as conceptual proliferation...
but here we have dukkha as a supporting condition for a sequence that lead to liberation.

Now, of course, these are "supporting conditions", not "sufficient conditions", so it is not inevitable that dukkha leads liberation.

So, it may be worth reviewing passages such as:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
The Blessed One said, "Monks, there are some brahmans & contemplatives who teach in this way, who have this view: 'Whatever a person experiences — pleasure, pain, or neither pleasure nor pain — all is caused by what was done in the past. Thus, with the destruction of old actions through asceticism, and with the non-doing of new actions, there will be no flow into the future. With no flow into the future, there is the ending of action. With the ending of action, the ending of stress. With the ending of stress, the ending of feeling. With the ending of feeling, all suffering & stress will be exhausted.' Such is the teaching of the Niganthas.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"'Though one might think, "Through this morality, this practice, this austerity, or this holy life I will ripen unripened kamma and eliminate ripened kamma whenever touched by it" — that is impossible. Pleasure and pain are measured out, the wandering-on is fixed in its limits. There is no shortening or lengthening, no accelerating or decelerating. Just as a ball of string, when thrown, comes to its end simply by unwinding, in the same way, having transmigrated and wandered on, the wise and the foolish alike will put an end to pain.'

The outcome is not inevitable, it does involve effort and so on...

:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby Sam Vara » Wed Mar 07, 2012 11:33 pm

Hi Mike,

but here we have dukkha as a supporting condition for a sequence that lead to liberation.

Now, of course, these are "supporting conditions", not "sufficient conditions", so it is not inevitable that dukkha leads liberation.


Indeed; liberation is conceptually dependent (supported by) whatever it is liberation from (dukkha). The extra factor which creates sufficient conditions for liberation is presumably being discussed on the "free will" thread on Open Dhamma.

On another note, the "rain on mountains" metaphor also appears in A.N. X 61.
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Mar 08, 2012 8:31 am

At S̄vatthı̄.

BB: For an essay based on this important sutta, see Bodhi, Transcendental Dependent Arising.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el277.html

The opening paragraph recurs at 22:101, but with a different sequel;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Spk states that the destruction of the taints (āsavakkhaya) is arahantship, which gains this name because it arises at the end of the destruction of the taints (āsavānaṃ khayante jātattā).

An earlier note on SN 12.21 discusses the aggregates:
    ‘Such is form, such its origin, such its passing away; such is feeling, such its origin, such its passing away; such is perception, such its origin, such its passing away; such are volitional formations, such their origin, such their passing away; such is consciousness, such its origin, such its passing away.'
This stock meditation formula on the five aggregates is also found in SN at 12:23, 22:78, 89 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.089.than.html], 101 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.101.than.html]. It occurs too in the two versions of the Satipaṭṭhāna Sutta at DN II 301,29-302,13 and MN I 61,3-8. [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.010.nysa.html] The origin (samudaya) and the passing away (atthaṅgama) of the aggregates are explained from the standpoint of diachronic conditionality at 22:5 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.005.than.html]and from the standpoint of synchronic conditionality at 22:56 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.056.than.html], 57 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn22/sn22.057.than.html].

See too n. 123 .
    “Bhikkhus, I will teach you the origin and the passing away of suffering. Listen to that and attend closely, I will speak.”
Spk: Suffering here is the suffering of the round (vaṭṭadukkha ). There are two kinds of origin, momentary origin (khaṇikasamudaya) and origin through conditions (paccaya-samudaya ). A bhikkhu who sees the one sees the other. Passing away is also twofold, final passing away (accantatthaṅgama; Spk-pṭ: nonoccurrence, cessation, Nibbāna) and dissolutional passing away (bhedatthaṅgama; Spk-pṭ: the momentary cessation of formations). One who sees the one sees the other.
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Mar 10, 2012 7:52 pm

“I say, bhikkhus, that the knowledge of destruction in regard to destruction has a proximate cause; it does not lack a proximate cause. And what is the proximate cause for the knowledge of destruction? It should be said: liberation"

Spk: Having set up the teaching with its climax in arahantship, the Buddha next shows the preliminary practice along which the arahant has travelled. The knowledge of destruction in regard to destruction (khayasmiṃ khaye ñāṇaṃ) is the reviewing knowledge (paccavekkhaṇañāṇa) which occurs when the destruction of the taints—namely, arahantship—has been obtained
See I, n. 376
    He directly knew: “Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.” And the Venerable Brahmadeva became one of the arahants.

    BB: This is the stock canonical description of the attainment of arahantship. The sentence beginning “He directly knew,” according to Spk, shows “the plane of reviewing” (paccavekkhaṇabhūmi ).

and Visuddhimagga 676; Ppn 22:19-21
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html
    20. He reviews the path in this way, “So this is the path I have come by.” Next he
    reviews the fruition after that in this way, “This is the blessing I have obtained.”
    Next he reviews the defilements that have been abandoned, “These are the
    defilements abandoned in me.” Next he reviews the defilements still to be
    eliminated by the three higher paths, “These are the defilements still remaining
    in me.” And lastly he reviews the deathless Nibbána in this way, “This is the
    state (dhamma) that has been penetrated by me as object.” So the noble disciple
    who is a stream-enterer has five kinds of reviewing.

    21. And as in the case of the stream-enterer, so also in the cases of the once-
    returner and non-returner. But the Arahant has no reviewing of remaining
    defilements. So all the kinds of reviewing total nineteen. This is the maximum
    number. Trainers may or may not have the reviewing of the defilements
    abandoned and those still remaining. In fact it was owing to the absence of such
    reviewing that Mahánáma asked the Blessed One, “What state is there still
    unabandoned by me internally owing to which at times states of greed invade
    my mind and remain?” (M I 91 [http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.014.than.html]) all of which should be quoted.
Liberation is the liberation of the fruit of arahantship (arahattaphalavimutti), which is a condition for reviewing knowledge by way of decisive-support condition (upanissayapaccaya). First the fruit of arahantship arises, then the knowledge of destruction.

BB: Spk glosses sa-upanisā as sakāraṇa, sappacayya, “with cause, with condition.” Spk-pṭ adds: upanisīdati phalaṃ etthā ti kāraṇaṃ upanisā; “the cause is called the proximate cause because the effect rests upon it.” Thus the commentators take upanisā to be the equivalent of Skt upaniṣad, not a contraction of upanissaya. Although, as CPD points out, “a semantic blend” with the latter takes place, the two words must be kept distinct because not everything that is an upanisā (proximate cause) for other things is an upanissayapaccaya (decisive support condition) for those things. The latter refers solely to something which plays a strong causal role.
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:01 am

“I say, bhikkhus, that faith too has a proximate cause; it does not lack a proximate cause. [31] And what is the proximate cause for faith? It should be said: suffering."

BB: Spk glosses the terms in the above sequence thus (starting from the end): Suffering is the suffering of the round (vaṭṭadukkha ). Faith is repeatedly arising faith (aparāparaṃ uppajjanasaddhā ; that is, tentative faith, not the unwavering faith of a noble disciple). Gladness (pāmojja) is weak rapture, while rapture proper (pīti) is strong rapture. Tranquillity (passaddhi) is the subsiding of distress, a condition for the happiness preliminary to absorption. Happiness is the happiness in the preliminary phase of meditative absorption, concentration the jhāna used as a basis (for insight; pādakajjhānasamādhi). Knowledge and vision of things as they really are (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) is weak insight, namely, the knowledges of the discernment of formations, of the overcoming of doubt, of exploration, and of what is and what is not the path (see Visuddhimagga chaps. 18-20). Revulsion (nibbidā ) is strong insight, namely, knowledge of appearance as fearful, of contemplation of danger, of reflection, and of equanimity about formations (Visuddhimagga XXI:29-66). Dispassion (virāga) is the path, which arises expunging defilements.
[See: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html for a dowloadable version of the Visuddhimagga.]

Note that in the next paragraph suffering replaces aging-and-death of the usual formula.
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Sun Mar 11, 2012 8:41 am

So we have the usual sequence
    ignorance
    volitional formations
    consciousness
    name-and-form
    the six sense bases
    contact
    feeling
    craving
    clinging
    existence
    birth

Then dukkha replaces aging&death:
    suffering
And the Commentary interprets the additional steps according to the development of concentration and the progress of insight as in the Visuddhimagga:
    faith: repeatedly arising faith (aparāparaṃ uppajjanasaddhā ; that is, tentative faith, not the unwavering faith of a noble disciple)
    gladness: (pāmojja) is weak rapture
    rapture: (pīti) is strong rapture
    tranquillity: (passaddhi) is the subsiding of distress, a condition for the happiness preliminary to absorption
    happiness: the happiness in the preliminary phase of meditative absorption
    concentration: the jhāna used as a basis (for insight; pādakajjhānasamādhi)
    the knowledge and vision of things as they really are: (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) is weak insight, namely, the knowledges of the discernment of formations, of the overcoming of doubt, of exploration, and of what is and what is not the path
    revulsion: (nibbidā ) is strong insight, namely, knowledge of appearance as fearful, of contemplation of danger, of reflection, and of equanimity about formations
    dispassion: is the path, which arises expunging defilements.
    liberation: the liberation of the fruit of arahantship (arahattaphalavimutti)
    the knowledge of destruction: reviewing knowledge by way of decisive-support condition (upanissayapaccaya)
:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Sun Mar 11, 2012 10:14 am

mikenz66 wrote:And the Commentary interprets the additional steps according to the development of concentration and the progress of insight as in the Visuddhimagga:
[list]
faith: repeatedly arising faith (aparāparaṃ uppajjanasaddhā ; that is, tentative faith, not the unwavering faith of a noble disciple)
gladness: (pāmojja) is weak rapture
rapture: (pīti) is strong rapture
tranquillity: (passaddhi) is the subsiding of distress, a condition for the happiness preliminary to absorption
happiness: the happiness in the preliminary phase of meditative absorption
concentration: the jhāna used as a basis (for insight; pādakajjhānasamādhi)
the knowledge and vision of things as they really are: (yathābhūtañāṇadassana) is weak insight, namely, the knowledges of the discernment of formations, of the overcoming of doubt, of exploration, and of what is and what is not the path
revulsion: (nibbidā ) is strong insight, namely, knowledge of appearance as fearful, of contemplation of danger, of reflection, and of equanimity about formations
dispassion: is the path, which arises expunging defilements.
liberation: the liberation of the fruit of arahantship (arahattaphalavimutti)
the knowledge of destruction: reviewing knowledge by way of decisive-support condition (upanissayapaccaya)


Thanks, that's useful. It does appear that here jhana is a necessary precursor to insight?

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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby AyyaSobhana » Mon Mar 12, 2012 3:00 am

Jayarava discusses the multiple suttas similar to upanisa sutta in showing progressive steps to Nibbana, here: http://jayarava.org/footnote.html
and a good analysis of yathābhūtañāṇādassana here: http://jayarava.blogspot.com/2008/10/kn ... ision.html

It is very powerful to show saddha arising from dukkha. A great teaching for 12-step rooms where they know the value of hitting bottom. But this may be just an awkward tacking together of two stock sequences.

More logically in the Parivāra: "Vinaya is for the purpose of restraint, restraint is for the purpose of freedom from remorse, freedom from remorse is for the purpose of gladness ..." etc. up to "knowledge and vision of liberation is for the purpose of extinguishment without clinging." And similarly in several Anguttara passages quoted by Jayarava, Sila is for the purpose of restraint, etc.

In peace,
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 5:03 am

Thank you AyyaSobhana, that's a very useful collection of sutta references.

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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Mon Mar 12, 2012 7:13 am

Some of the passages mentioned in the above link.

MN 44 PTS Culavedalla Sutta: The Shorter Set of Questions-and-Answers
"Is passion-obsession to be abandoned with regard to all pleasant feeling? Is resistance-obsession to be abandoned with regard to all painful feeling? Is ignorance-obsession to be abandoned with regard to all neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

"No... There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With that he abandons passion. No passion-obsession gets obsessed there.[4] There is the case where a monk considers, 'O when will I enter & remain in the dimension that those who are noble now enter & remain in?' And as he thus nurses this yearning for the unexcelled liberations, there arises within him sorrow based on that yearning. With that he abandons resistance. No resistance-obsession gets obsessed there.[5] There is the case where a monk, with the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. With that he abandons ignorance. No ignorance-obsession gets obsessed there."[6]

"Now what, lady, lies on the other side of pleasant feeling?"

"Passion lies on the other side of pleasant feeling."

"And what lies on the other side of painful feeling?"

"Resistance lies on the other side of painful feeling." [7]

"What lies on the other side of neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling?"

"Ignorance lies on the other side of neither-pleasant-nor-painful feeling."

"What lies on the other side of ignorance?"

"Clear knowing lies on the other side of ignorance."

"What lies on the other side of clear knowing?"

"Release lies on the other side of clear knowing."

"What lies on the other side of release?"

"Unbinding lies on the other side of release."

"What lies on the other side of Unbinding?"

"You've gone too far, friend Visakha. You can't keep holding on up to the limit of questions. For the holy life gains a footing in Unbinding, culminates in Unbinding, has Unbinding as its final end. If you wish, go to the Blessed One and ask him the meaning of these things. Whatever he says, that's how you should remember it."

Notes

4. In other words, once the pleasure of the first jhana has been used as a basis for giving rise to the discernment that leads to arahantship, the mind has no further passion-obsession with pleasant feeling. (The commentary says that this is true at attainment of non-returning, but this must be a mistake, as non-returners are still subject to passion for form and formless phenomena.)

5. Once this sorrow has been used as a basis for giving rise to the discernment that leads to non-returning, the mind has no further resistance-obsession with painful feeling.

6. Once this feeling of neither pleasure nor pain has been used as a basis for giving rise to the discernment that leads to arahantship, the mind has no further ignorance-obsession with feelings of neither pleasure nor pain.

7. This reading follows the Thai edition of the Pali canon. The PTS edition of the Pali canon gives the first two questions and answers in this exchange as follows:

"Now what, lady, lies on the other side of pleasant feeling?"
"Painful feeling lies on the other side of pleasant feeling."
"And what lies on the other side of painful feeling?"
"Pleasant feeling lies on the other side of painful feeling."

For some reason, the editors of neither edition seem to have been aware of the reading in the other edition.


AN vi.50
http://bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208-p.html#27.StepbyStep
If there is no sense control, O monks, then the basis for virtue is destroyed for one who lacks sense control. If there is no virtue, then the basis for right concentration is destroyed for one who lacks virtue. If there is no right concentration, then the basis for knowledge and vision of things as they really are is destroyed for one who lacks right concentration. If there is no knowledge and vision of things as they really are, then the basis for revulsion and dispassion is destroyed for one who lacks such knowledge and vision. If there is no revulsion and dispassion, then the basis for the knowledge and vision of liberation is destroyed for one who lacks revulsion and dispassion.

This is like a tree without branches and foliage: the buds will not mature; nor will the bark, the greenwood, and the heartwood mature. Similarly, if sense control is absent, there will be no basis for virtue … for knowledge and vision of liberation.


AN v,1
http://bps.lk/olib/wh/wh238-p.html
“Hence, Ananda, virtuous ways of conduct have non-remorse as their benefit and reward; non-remorse has gladness as its benefit and reward; gladness has joy as its benefit and reward; joy has serenity as its benefit and reward; serenity has happiness as its benefit and reward; happiness has concentration as its benefit and reward; concentration has knowledge and vision of things as they really are as its benefit and reward; knowledge and vision of things as they really are has revulsion and dispassion as its benefit and reward; revulsion and dispassion have the knowledge and vision of liberation as their benefit and reward. In this way, Ananda, virtuous ways of conduct lead step by step to the highest.”


AN v,2-3
http://bps.lk/olib/wh/wh238-p.html
For one who is virtuous and endowed with virtue, there is no need for an act of will: “May non-remorse arise in me!” It is a natural law, monks, that non-remorse will arise in one who is virtuous.
...
Thus, monks, revulsion and dispassion have knowledge and vision of liberation as their benefit and reward … (continued in conformity with the above, back to) … virtuous ways of conduct have non-remorse as their benefit and reward.

Thus, monks, the preceding qualities flow into the succeeding qualities; the succeeding qualities bring the preceding qualities to perfection, for going from the near shore to the far shore.


MN 24 Ratha-vinita Sutta: Relay Chariots
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
[The basis for the steps of the Path of Purification (Visuddhimagga)]
"And is the holy life lived under the Blessed One for the sake of purity in terms of virtue?"[2]

"No, my friend."
...
... purity in terms of mind [concentration]?"
... purity in terms of view?"
... purity in terms of the overcoming of perplexity?"
... purity in terms of knowledge & vision of what is & is not the path?"
... purity in terms of knowledge & vision of the way?"
... purity in terms of knowledge & vision?"
...
"The holy life is lived under the Blessed One, my friend, for the sake of total Unbinding through lack of clinging."


DN 18 Janavasabha Sutta: About janavasabha
From right view arises right thought, from right thought arises right speech, from right speech arises right action, from right action arises right livelihood, from right livelihood arises right effort, from right effort arises right mindfulness, from right mindfulness arises right concentration, from right concentration arises right knowledge, from right knowledge arises right liberation


SN 35.97 Pamadaviharin Sutta: Dwelling in Heedlessness
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
"And how does one dwell in heedfulness? When a monk dwells with restraint over the faculty of the eye, the mind is not stained with forms cognizable via the eye. When the mind is not stained, there is joy. There being joy, there is rapture. There being rapture, there is serenity. There being serenity, he dwells in ease. The mind of one at ease becomes centered. When the mind is centered, phenomena (dhammas) become manifest. When phenomena are manifest, one is classed simply as one who dwells in heedfulness.


:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Tue Mar 13, 2012 8:06 am

“Just as, bhikkhus, when rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountain top, the water flows down along the slope and fills the cleft, gullies, and creeks; these being full fill up the pools; these being full fill up the lakes; these being full fill up the streams; these being full fill up the rivers; and these being full fill up the great ocean; so too, with ignorance as proximate cause, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as proximate cause, consciousness … with liberation as proximate cause, the knowledge of destruction.”

BB: The simile also occurs at


SN 55:38 Rain
“Bhikkhus, just as, when rain pours down in thick droplets on a mountain top, the water flows down along the slope and fills the cleft, gullies, and creeks; these being filled fill up the pools; these being filled fill up the lakes; these being filled fill up the streams; these being filled fill up the rivers; and these being filled fill up the great ocean; so too, for a noble disciple, these things—confirmed confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Saṅgha, and the virtues dear to the noble ones—flow onwards and, having gone beyond, they lead to the destruction of the taints.”


(AN I 243,27-32) AN 3.94
3. Saradasutta: In Autumn

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .html#sn55
95. Bhikkhus, in Autumn when there is a clear sky, without a single cloud and the sun rising high up in the sky destroys all the darkness and burns and scorches every thing. In the same manner to the noble disciple there arises the eye of the Teaching and together with that arising, three bonds get dispelled, the view of a self, doubts and taking virtues as the ultimate end of the holy life. After that the leading is by covetousness and hatred. He secluding the mind from sensual and demeritorious thoughts, with thoughts and thought processes and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion abides in the first jhana. If the noble disciple dies at that time he has no bonds on account of which he is to be born in this world .


(AN V 114,6-14) AN10.61
1. Avijjàsutta:Ignorance

http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html
61. Bhikkhus, a beginning to ignorance cannot be pointed out, `Before this there was no ignorance, it occured afterwards. Bhikkhus, it is pointed out: On account of this, there is ignorance.
...
Bhikkhus, like water from the big drops of rain, that fall on top of the mountains coming down to the lowlands fill up mountain creeks and streams. They in turn fill up the small rivers and the huge rivers and fill up the great ocean. And that water becomes the supportive condition for the ocean.

In the same manner bhikkhus, associating Great beings leads to listening to the correct Teaching. Listening to the correct Teaching leads to faith. Faith leads to wsie attention. Wise attention leads to mindful awareness Mindful awareness leads to restrained mental faculties. Restrained mental faculties lead to the three right behaviours. The three right behaviours lead to the four establishments of mindfulness. The four establishments of mindfulness lead to the seven enlightenment factorsòhe seven enlightenment factors lead to knowledge and release. Thus these are the supportive conditions for knowledge and release.
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby vinasp » Sat Mar 17, 2012 6:09 am

Hi everyone,

I have just noticed that the same sequence of terms is found in the
first sutta of the Anguttara Nikaya, Part V The Book of Tens.

PTS Gradual Sayings V page 1. [ Translated by F. L. Woodward.]

The terms are; good conduct, freedom from remorse, joy, rapture, calm,
happiness, concentration, knowing and seeing things as they really are,
revulsion and fading of interest, release by knowing and seeing.

Unfortunately, it is not yet available on ATI.

Regards, Vincent.
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby mikenz66 » Sat Mar 17, 2012 7:34 am

Hi Vincent,

I gave a link to that sutta here:
viewtopic.php?f=25&t=11701&view=unread#p177957
It's in the Nyanaponika Thera and Bhikkhu Bodhi BPS collection. Specifically:
http://bps.lk/olib/wh/wh208-p.html#27.StepbyStep

:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.23 Upanisa Sutta: Discourse on Supporting Conditions

Postby vinasp » Sat Mar 17, 2012 8:11 am

Hi Mike,

Sorry! I did not notice that it had already been pointed out.

The same theme is developed in the next four suttas.
Number 2 is very interesting, it says that no effort is required, and that
all these things arise automatically for "one who is virtuous."
Even concentration and liberation are said to follow automatically.

I am not sure what to make of it.

Regards, Vincent.
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