Does it Matter Where One Places One's Attention

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
User avatar
Pondera
Posts: 3060
Joined: Thu Aug 11, 2011 10:02 pm

Re: Does it Matter Where One Places One's Attention

Post by Pondera »

Actually no, breath awareness is just breath awareness and body awareness is body awareness. The breath is just one of many things happening in the body at any one time. It is a very useful gateway to body awareness though, for example in the body sweeping vipassana technique breath awareness is used at the beginning to help establish concentration before progressing to awareness of bodily sensation.

Then there are the four foundations of mindfulness; body, mind, feelings, and dhammas. Body awareness is an important foundation because it's the easiest to work with and keeps you grounded but just as breath awareness is just the beginning of body awareness so body awareness is just the beginning of the four foundations of mindfulness.
Well the four foundations of mindfulness are explicitly indicated in the full description of the in and out breathing meditation, but I admit that each is a separate object of meditation in and of itself. Still, regardless of what you direct your contemplation towards, breathing will not only accompany that thing (whether it is the body, the mind, feelings, or dhamma); breathing will also condition that thing.

Actually no, Buddhist insight doesn't necessarily follow from relaxation of the body and the passage you've quoted doesn't support this idea either, it's the description of just one meditation technique and it's a concentration technique not an insight technique.
Of course it's insight! The passage doesn't stop at calming the mind. The passage stops when Nirvana is reached! That's insight.
As one gains insight and lets go of holding onto stresses and tension then of course the body relaxes more. As one gains more body awareness one can recognise when tension is starting to arise, investigate, the causes and let go of them.

But to say insight follows from relaxation of the body seems a pretty odd way of looking at things and not my experience, or perhaps frequenting massage parlours is the road to enlightenment.
Well, you don't necessarily have to calm the body in order to achieve insight into reality. It's a good idea to. Recall Sariputta in the sutta "One After the Other".
This is my point also, you appear to be taking the breath cart before the awareness horse.
Well, my point of view is that the awareness cart should follow behind the breathing horse, and this seems right to me. But I don't think we'll get anywhere arguing about it because both of us are probably convinced we're right. So maybe a vote or tally of opinions might settle that. But we won't be able to between the two of us.
Indeed, but if one doesn't progress beyond giving importance to just one tool then what progression is there? That doesn't mean that the tool of breath awareness ever passes a use by date it's just our understanding of the whole mind body process progresses beyond just that.
You know, I slipped into Neither Perception nor Non-Perception and I recall that there was one distinct breath which separated that last bit of consciousness my Mind was holding onto and then total blank awareness. When Perception and Feeling ceased, I don't recall whether I breathed or not. But it was very much, even at a stage of progression like the eighth jhana still a question of "how can I use my breath and my knowledge to attain insight and liberation." So...
Like the three marks of conditioned existence, this world in itself is filthy, hostile, and crowded
User avatar
pilgrim
Posts: 1679
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2009 2:56 pm

Re: Does it Matter Where One Places One's Attention

Post by pilgrim »

I find both useful depending on my mind state. When I'm distracted or tired, I focus on the abdomen as it is grosser and more easily observed. Then when I am calmed down somewhat, I change to the nostrils to refine the concentration.
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Does it Matter Where One Places One's Attention

Post by Goofaholix »

Pondera wrote:Well the four foundations of mindfulness are explicitly indicated in the full description of the in and out breathing meditation, but I admit that each is a separate object of meditation in and of itself. Still, regardless of what you direct your contemplation towards, breathing will not only accompany that thing (whether it is the body, the mind, feelings, or dhamma); breathing will also condition that thing.
Yes of course, breathing is involved in everything we do, that's one of the reasons it's by far the most popular introductory Buddhist meditation techniques, however the Buddha listed many more subjects of meditation which to me is evidence that it's the effect on the mind that's important not the technique itself.

The two most popular Theravadin meditation traditions today, Mahasi Sayadaw and U Ba Khin, both do not use meditation on the breath as the main thing. The former uses it as an anchor to help establish concentration and return to when one gets lost with noting practise, the latter to help establish concentration and an awareness of bodily sensation before moving on to the main thing.
Pondera wrote:Of course it's insight! The passage doesn't stop at calming the mind. The passage stops when Nirvana is reached! That's insight.
Yes you're right the sutta moves on to talk about insight. The word translated as calming is passadhi http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Passaddhi" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; and calming is part of the process but I'm not sure that relaxation is a good translation, also I think it's quite a stretch to contend that there is a causal relationship between relaxation and insight, one can gain a lot of insight when clearly observing tension, but I do think that insight in turn leads to more calming.
Pondera wrote:Well, you don't necessarily have to calm the body in order to achieve insight into reality. It's a good idea to. Recall Sariputta in the sutta "One After the Other".
See, we agree.
Pondera wrote:Well, my point of view is that the awareness cart should follow behind the breathing horse, and this seems right to me. But I don't think we'll get anywhere arguing about it because both of us are probably convinced we're right. So maybe a vote or tally of opinions might settle that. But we won't be able to between the two of us.
That could only be true if the breath were the only meditation object, and as I've pointed out this is clearly not the case.

Over the past few years I've been attending quite a few retreats where the breath is not used as an object at all, listening to the questions of meditators I've noticed something a bit disturbing. It's quite common to get questions about the breath even though none of the instructions have encouraged it's use as an object like people haven't been listening, it's also quite common for people who do realise they need to change meditation object to find they struggle to do so. So breath meditation has become an habitual rut one can't let go of rather than a tool to enhance awareness.

You appear to be heading down this path, which is probably fine if you are interested in relaxation and/or jhana, but not if you're interested in insight.
Pondera wrote:You know, I slipped into Neither Perception nor Non-Perception and I recall that there was one distinct breath which separated that last bit of consciousness my Mind was holding onto and then total blank awareness. When Perception and Feeling ceased, I don't recall whether I breathed or not. But it was very much, even at a stage of progression like the eighth jhana still a question of "how can I use my breath and my knowledge to attain insight and liberation." So...
Yes, and all this happened in the mind not the breath, the breath was just a tool to hold onto and help you get there, once you've crossed the river time to let go of the raft.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
benoit_santerre
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:22 am

Re: Does it Matter Where One Places One's Attention

Post by benoit_santerre »

"befriend wrote:
tip of nose or around the nose = samatha,
rising motions of abdomen = vipassana
motion of feet in walking meditation = vipassana"

Actually, Mahasi Sayadaw has himself said that breath at nostrils could be used for vipassana. Believe it or not (I've read this from one of his discourse), he didn't teach at the nostril because he wanted to avoid criticism from others that this could not be called vipassana but samatha! If a reference to what discourse of Mahasi S. said this, I could find it but don't have it right now. Just ask me and I'll find it.
The pressure is strong in Burma for teachers to justify their techniques in the suttas or commentaries. The commentaries classify mindfulness of breath (at nostril) as samatha. Since Mahasi Sayadaw said he taught direct vipassana, teaching at the nostrils would put him in contradiction to the commentaries, and therefore open to criticism. There is a "political" aspect to this debate I think many are not aware of in the Western vipassana circle simply because we don't have the same demands from tradition as in Theravada Buddhist countries. Unfortunately Mahasi S. was criticised anyway for teaching the movement of the abdomen as Anapanasati. He clarified that he did not consider focusing at the abdomen as 'Anapanasati' but as contemplating the motion element.
In any case, whether one is in vipassana or samatha mode does not depend on where one is focused in the body, but on the quality of attention. If you are focused on the nostrils and get to the point where you contemplate the elements in the breath sensations, such as pressure, softness, temperature, motion, then you are in vipassana mode. This instruction I actually got from the Mahasi lineage.
And then you have people actually getting "jhanic" type experiences from focusing on the movement of the abdomen. It's all about "how" one uses one's attention, not "where".
There are also other techniques in Burma that uses breath at nostrils as vipassana. Mogok Sayadaw taught a method where one focuses on breath at the nostrils (initially as samatha), but then switches to vipassana using that same breath at the nostrils by contemplating "in-breathing consciousness" and "out-breathing consciousness".
Webu Sayadaw taught vipassana by exclusively using the breath sensations at the nostrils.
Ledi Sayadaw, in his 'AnapanaDipani', showed how breath at nostrils can be used for vipassana by contemplating the breath with wisdom.
Although the commentaries mention breath at nostrils as Samatha, many masters obviously disagree with that classification.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Does it Matter Where One Places One's Attention

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi benoit_santerre,

Thank you for your interesting post. It would be nice to see a quote from Mahasi Sayadaw, but the following from Sayadaw U Pandita basically says what you are saying, that some choices in teaching style were made to minimize criticism from conservative elements...

http://aimwell.org/Books/Other/Questions/questions.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
“Why did Mahāsi Sayādaw ignore ānāpānassati, which was directly taught by the Buddha, but introduced the rising-falling method?”

“Is ānāpānassati the same in essence as vipassanā and meditating on rising and falling, and able to lead to magga-phala and nibbāna?”

In answering these questions, Panditārāma Sayādaw explained the teachings of the Mahāsi Sayādaw as follows.

Ānāpānassati can take two directions. If the meditator strives to be mindful of the form or manner of the in-breath and the out-breath, then it is samatha meditation and leads to one-pointedness of mind. On the other hand, if the meditator notes the sensation of the in-breath and out-breath as it moves and touches, then it is vipassanā meditation. The element of wind or motion (vayo-dhātu) is rūpa or matter, while the awareness or consciousness of the sensation is nāma or mind. Therefore, ānāpānassati can be considered as vipassanā, and can lead to high levels of insight wisdom. However, in the Visuddhimagga, in the section on kāyānupassana, or mindfulness of body, fourteen objects of meditation are discussed, and further subdivided into objects for samatha and vipassanā meditation. In the Visuddhimagga, ānāpānassati is presented as an object of samatha meditation. Consequently, if we are to instruct meditators to develop ānāpānassati as part of vipassanā meditation, we will be inviting much unwanted and unwarranted criticism and controversy. And neither Mahāsi Sayādaw or myself would want to argue here that the Visuddhimagga, the rightly venerated classic, is at fault here.

It has been said that by noting the rising and falling of the abdomen, meditators are distancing themselves from the teachings of the Buddha. The answer to this is a firm and definite “no.” Quite apart from the success that meditators have achieved by noting rising-falling, there is much solid evidence in the Buddhist scriptures, such as Salāyatana Vagga Samyutta, to show that the method is very much a part of the Buddha’s teachings regarding mindfulness of the body, mindfulness of the elements (dhātu), and mindfulness of the five aggregates (khandhas).
:anjali:
Mike
benoit_santerre
Posts: 6
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:22 am

Re: Does it Matter Where One Places One's Attention

Post by benoit_santerre »

Thanks Mikenz66!
Excellent passage you found!
metta.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Does it Matter Where One Places One's Attention

Post by mikenz66 »

Yes, there's this odd idea that Mahasi Sayadaw and his students are part of some conservative, studious establishment, rather than inspiring, practical, meditation teachers.

Here's more from U Pandita that is relevant to this, and other, discussions.
http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pesala/Pan ... hanas.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Vipassanā jhāna is the focusing of the mind on paramattha dhammas. Usually these are spoken of as “ultimate realities,” but actually they are just the things we can experience directly through the six sense doors without conceptualization.
:anjali:
Mike
Post Reply