10fold path?

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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Jechbi
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10fold path?

Post by Jechbi »

From here:
Of those, right view is the forerunner. And how is right view the forerunner? In one of right view, right resolve comes into being. In one of right resolve, right speech comes into being. In one of right speech, right action... In one of right action, right livelihood... In one of right livelihood, right effort... In one of right effort, right mindfulness... In one of right mindfulness, right concentration... In one of right concentration, right knowledge... In one of right knowledge, right release comes into being. Thus the learner is endowed with eight factors, and the arahant with ten.
and from the Micchatta Sutta:
"From wrongness comes failure, not success. And how is it, monks, that from wrongness comes failure, not success?

"In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.

"This is how from wrongness comes failure, not success.

"From rightness comes success, not failure. And how is it, monks, that from rightness comes success, not failure?

"In a person of right view, right resolve comes into being. In a person of right resolve, right speech. In a person of right speech, right action. In a person of right action, right livelihood. In a person of right livelihood, right effort. In a person of right effort, right mindfulness. In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release.

"This is how from rightness comes success, not failure."
So we have:
samma-ditthi (right understanding)
samma-sankappa (right thought)
samma-vaca (right speech)
samma-kammanta (right action)
samna-ajiva (right livelihood)
samma-vayama (right effort)
samma-sati (right awareness)
samma-samadhi (right concentration)

And the other 2 are:
samma-nana (right knowledge)
samma-vimutti (right release)

I understand the last 2 to be fruits. Is there any sense in which they also can be part of "practice" in the broad sense of the word? Or are they fully absent prior to attaintment to the fruit of arahant?

:anjali:

[edit: to fix typo, changing the word "In" to "Is" in the first question.]
Last edited by Jechbi on Sat May 16, 2009 4:05 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Individual
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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Individual »

Jechbi wrote: I understand the last 2 to be fruits. In there any sense in which they also can be part of "practice" in the broad sense of the word? Or are they fully absent prior to attaintment to the fruit of arahant?

:anjali:
The Buddha used many different classifications. He could've made a 5-fold path, an 11-fold path, or a 100-fold path. There seems to be nothing particularly significant about a given numbering scheme or classification. See the Pañcakanga Sutta. As another example, take into account everything the Buddha said about self not existing, about everything not being self, then read chapter 12 of the Dhammapada. And lastly, if that doesn't clarify things, then there is the extremely, almost painfully cliche quote by Bruce Lee (here).
The best things in life aren't things.

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Jechbi
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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Individual,
Individual wrote:The Buddha used many different classifications. He could've made a 5-fold path, an 11-fold path, or a 100-fold path. There seems to be nothing particularly significant about a given numbering scheme or classification. See the Pañcakanga Sutta. As another example, take into account everything the Buddha said about self not existing, about everything not being self, then read chapter 12 of the Dhammapada. And lastly, if that doesn't clarify things, then there is the extremely, almost painfully cliche quote by Bruce Lee (here).
I'm not in the least bit concerned with whether the number is 8 or 10 or 84,000. I'm not asking about the number.

Everybody here is very familiar with the Noble Eightfold Path and its eight aspects. I'm asking about the two additional aspects mentioned in the citations provided in the OP. With regard to samma-nana (right knowledge) and samma-vimutti (right release), the questions are:
Jechbi wrote:Is there any sense in which they also can be part of "practice" in the broad sense of the word? Or are they fully absent prior to attaintment to the fruit of arahant?
[edit: to fix typo, changing the word "In" to "Is" in the first question.]
Last edited by Jechbi on Sat May 16, 2009 4:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Jechbi
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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Jechbi »

Any way, here's a talk on the subject. Just found it.
:reading:
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Uncover, then, what is concealed,
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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Cittasanto »

the 8fold path is the path we use to get to the ten.
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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Fede »

In my humble, inexperienced and relatively uneducated opinion, I would think that -

samma-ditthi (right understanding) Leads to samma-nana (right knowledge)
samma-sankappa (right thought)
samma-vaca (right speech)
samma-kammanta (right action)
samna-ajiva (right livelihood)
samma-vayama (right effort) leads to samma-vimutti (right release)
samma-sati (right awareness)
samma-samadhi (right concentration)

The Eightfold Path covers many different attributes or Virtues. As I see it, these last two are ably covered by the Eightfold Path.
:namaste:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Fede,
Fede wrote:The Eightfold Path covers many different attributes or Virtues. As I see it, these last two are ably covered by the Eightfold Path.
Interestingly, not everyone thinks so. Like here, for example:
But the Noble Eightfold Path, it must be clearly noted, ends at the eighth item of samadhi. The Path itself proceeds no more. The pursuer of the Path needs, beyond this, the wisdom of nana [= panna] as the ninth item and the consequent release or vimutti as the tenth before he comes to be called the arahant or the accomplished one ...
There's quite a bit of writing out there to suggest that these last two factors are not regarded as part of the Eightfold Path. I'm wondering, though, if there's general agreement on the question of whether, for example, it's possible for an ordinary Buddhist to "practice" samma-nana at all as one might "practice" one of the 8 aspects -- or if the notion of "practicing" samma-nana is completely invalid. I'm getting the impression that the latter is the case. Also, it looks like samma-nana sometimes is confused with samma-ditthi.

I think this has been discussed somewhat over at the Yahoo group, but I'm horrible at navigating that place.

:anjali:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: 10fold path?

Post by appicchato »

Jechbi wrote:...the Noble Eightfold Path, it must be clearly noted, ends at the eighth item of samadhi. The Path itself proceeds no more.
This is not the way it works folks...according to my understanding that is...it's not a sequential proposition, starting with Right View, and ending with Right Concentration...you don't have to have Right Livelihood before you get Right Effort...and you don't have to have Right Speech before you get Right Action...isn't that evident?... :coffee:
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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Fede »

....Durnit.... ya beat me to it..... :tongue:

The Path is often illustrated as a wheel... hard to know where it begins or ends, isn't it? :thinking:

;)

:namaste:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Jechbi »

Thanks, Venerable and Fede.
appicchato wrote:This is not the way it works folks...according to my understanding that is...it's not a sequential proposition, starting with Right View, and ending with Right Concentration...you don't have to have Right Livelihood before you get Right Effort...and you don't have to have Right Speech before you get Right Action...isn't that evident?... :coffee:
That's been my perspective for some time, but I'm trying to keep an open mind. I've also had the perspective (without really examining it thoroughly) that samma-nana is possible to incorporate as part of practice. Now I'm wondering if that assumption is nothing but pure ego and delusion.

From my perspective, if it's true that samma-nana is NOT possible to incorporate as part of practice, that's fine. I'll keep on practicing the 8fold path to the best of my ability. But personally I would like to arrive at a more correct understanding of Dhamma. So whether the 8 aspects of the Path run sequentially or concurrently (and I suspect there's some truth in each understanding, and that it's not a black-and-white matter of one or the other) is not something I'm too concerned about.

My question is not about whether the 8fold path occurs sequentially or concurrently. I'm wondering whether the last two elements (samma-nana and samma-vimutti) run concurrently with the rest of the 8fold path as courses of practice prior to attainment to the fruit of arahant. Or do they only come after? It seems like you're saying that samma-nana and samma-vimutti can run concurrently and be part of our practice of the 8fold path. Am I understanding you correctly? I'm not taking a position at this moment. I would simply like to have a clearer understanding of this.

:anjali:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Fede »

Whilst there may be many 'opinions' and views given, I think for my part you are pursuing the right approach, and investigating matters until you reach a level of personal satisfaction. I/we might agree, or otherwise.
Actually, that is irrelevant. Providing you take different Points of View on board (which you are doing, no argument there!), I don't think anyone can be as persuasive to you as your own personal conviction.

:namaste:
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.

Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!

Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself. ;)

I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?! :D


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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Jechbi »

Thanks, Fede. I'm hoping this discussion helps create the framework for a more correct understanding of practice.

(Also, as a side-note, I would like to clarify that I did not write this:
appicchato wrote:
Jechbi wrote:...the Noble Eightfold Path, it must be clearly noted, ends at the eighth item of samadhi. The Path itself proceeds no more.
The author was Bhikkhu Professor Dhammavihari.)

:anjali:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Jechbi »

Ok, I'm going to take a position now with regard to samma-nana and samma-vimutti. I stand to be corrected:
Jechbi wrote:Is there any sense in which they also can be part of "practice" in the broad sense of the word?
Yes.
Jechbi wrote:Or are they fully absent prior to attaintment to the fruit of arahant?
No.

:thinking:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Cittasanto »

hi Jechbi,
Could you elaborate on your reasoning for your answers I potentially agree just wondering if we are on the sape page so to speak?
Jechbi wrote:Ok, I'm going to take a position now with regard to samma-nana and samma-vimutti. I stand to be corrected:
Jechbi wrote:Is there any sense in which they also can be part of "practice" in the broad sense of the word?
Yes.
Jechbi wrote:Or are they fully absent prior to attaintment to the fruit of arahant?
No.

:thinking:
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: 10fold path?

Post by Jechbi »

Well, in terms of samma-nana, I take that to mean panna or insight. Seems to me that as we progress in practice (in the broad sense of the term "practice," meaning practice of the full 8fold path), we attain to insight in small, imperfect measures even before we have attained to any ariya fruit.

And in terms of samm-vimutti, as we progress in practice in the sense mentioned above, we can get a better (yet still flawed) understanding of what nibbana is, even if we can't put it into words, and even if we haven't attained to any ariya fruit. We might get a "taste" of nibbana, so to speak.

I feel more confident about the first position, and less confident about the second. I don't feel fully confident about either position. I'd be interested in hearing clarification about these ideas from the perspective of scripture as well as from the perspective of practice.

:anjali:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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