the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:51 pm


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Tue Mar 13, 2012 9:54 pm

Last edited by nowheat on Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:01 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:11 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:16 pm


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:23 pm


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retrofuturist
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby retrofuturist » Tue Mar 13, 2012 10:28 pm

Greetings Nowheat,

For what it's worth, I found what you said to be totally in accord with the Dhamma of the Buddha.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:10 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby daverupa » Tue Mar 13, 2012 11:33 pm


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:06 am


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rowboat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby rowboat » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:16 am

From Venerable Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes that follow the Brahma-nimantanika Sutta: The Brahma Invitation; MN 49
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Consciousness without surface (viññanam anidassanam): This term appears to be related to the following image from SN 12.64:
"Just as if there were a roofed house or a roofed hall having windows on the north, the south, or the east. When the sun rises, and a ray has entered by way of the window, where does it land?"

"On the western wall, lord."

"And if there is no western wall, where does it land?"

"On the ground, lord."

"And if there is no ground, where does it land?"

"On the water, lord."

"And if there is no water, where does it land?"

"It does not land, lord."

"In the same way, where there is no passion for the nutriment of physical food ... contact ... intellectual intention ... consciousness, where there is no delight, no craving, then consciousness does not land there or grow. Where consciousness does not land or grow, name-&-form does not alight. Where name-&-form does not alight, there is no growth of fabrications. Where there is no growth of fabrications, there is no production of renewed becoming in the future. Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death. That, I tell you, has no sorrow, affliction, or despair."

In other words, normal sensory consciousness is experienced because it has a "surface" against which it lands: the sense organs and their objects, which constitute the "all." For instance, we experience visual consciousness because of the eye and forms of which we are conscious. Consciousness without surface, however, is directly known, without intermediary, free from any dependence on conditions at all.

This consciousness thus differs from the consciousness factor in dependent co-arising, which is defined in terms of the six sense media. Lying outside of time and space, it would also not come under the consciousness-aggregate, which covers all consciousness near and far; past, present, and future. And, as SN 35.23 notes, the word "all" in the Buddha's teaching covers only the six sense media, which is another reason for not including this consciousness under the aggregates. However, the fact that it is outside of time and space — in a dimension where there is no here, there, or in between (Ud I.10), no coming, no going, or staying (Ud VIII.1) — means that it cannot be described as permanent or omnipresent, terms that have meaning only within space and time.

Some have objected to the equation of this consciousness with nibbana, on the grounds that nibbana is no where else in the Canon described as a form of consciousness. Thus they have proposed that consciousness without surface be regarded as an arahant's consciousness of nibbana in meditative experience, and not nibbana itself. This argument, however, contains two flaws: (1) The term viññanam anidassanam also occurs in DN 11, where it is described as where name & form are brought to an end: surely a synonym for nibbana. (2) If nibbana is an object of mental consciousness (as a dhamma), it would come under the all, as an object of the intellect. There are passages in the Canon (such as AN 9.36) that describe meditators experiencing nibbana as a dhamma, but these passages seem to indicate that this description applies up through the level of non-returning. Other passages, however, describe nibbana as the ending of all dhammas. For instance, Sn V.6 quotes the Buddha as calling the attainment of the goal the transcending of all dhammas. Sn IV.6 and Sn IV.10 state that the arahant has transcended dispassion, said to be the highest dhamma. Thus, for the arahant, nibbana is not an object of consciousness. Instead it is directly known without mediation. Because consciousness without feature is directly known without mediation, there seems good reason to equate the two.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5

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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Wed Mar 14, 2012 1:28 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:50 am


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Mar 15, 2012 9:53 am


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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby Spiny O'Norman » Thu Mar 15, 2012 10:01 am


nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Fri Mar 16, 2012 6:51 pm


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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Fri Mar 16, 2012 8:09 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

nowheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby nowheat » Fri Mar 16, 2012 10:56 pm


vinasp
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby vinasp » Fri Mar 16, 2012 11:00 pm

Hi Spiny, everyone,

Quote:
"But in DO "death" is defined in straightforward physical terms - so I'm not sure I follow your reasoning here."

How can you say that "death" is described in straightforward physical terms?

1. It is clearly said to be the "death" of "a being" (satta).

2. A being is defined in terms of craving.

3. An Arahant has no craving - he is therefore, not a being.

4. So, for an Arahant, the link "death" has already ceased, since there
is no longer "a being" to die.

5. The body will, of course, at some point, stop functioning and will
disintegrate.

Regards, Vincent.

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kirk5a
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Postby kirk5a » Sat Mar 17, 2012 12:01 am

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230


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