Nibbāna

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
Post Reply
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Nibbāna

Post by cooran »

Hello all,

It is said that our language is unable to describe Nibbāna using the concepts we are familiar with. My understanding always comes up against a brick wall when thinking about Nibbāna. Is it extinction, is it immortality? Is it immortality of an everchanging stream of consciousness?

Is anyone, using the scriptures which have been preserved for us, able to give a relatively coherent explanation for the unenlightened?

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
Ceisiwr
Posts: 22390
Joined: Sun Jan 11, 2009 2:36 am
Location: Wales

Re: Nibbāna

Post by Ceisiwr »

Isnt this just going to be a repeat of the parinibbana discussion?
“Knowing that this body is just like foam,
understanding it has the nature of a mirage,
cutting off Māra’s flower-tipped arrows,
one should go beyond the King of Death’s sight.”
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Nibbāna

Post by cooran »

No
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Nibbāna

Post by kc2dpt »

Chris wrote:Is it extinction, is it immortality?
Extinction of what? Immortality of what? I think we have to be careful to not hide a self in questions like these.
Chris wrote:Is anyone, using the scriptures which have been preserved for us, able to give a relatively coherent explanation for the unenlightened?
"The end of suffering" has always been good enough for me. What little I know of suffering seems like a good thing to end. I think, and this is the key for me, that as my understanding of the full breadth and depth of suffering expands so does my understanding of the end of suffering. In other words, I think in order for one to fully understand cessation one must first fully understand what has arisen.

I do wonder why the word "nibbana" has been rarified. Why not nirodha? Or any of the other words in the third noble truth? Why don't we capitalize "dispassion" or "cessation" like we do "Unbinding"? I wonder if we haven't created for ourselves a red herring by focusing on this one word "nibbana".

"The goal of Buddhism is Nibbana."
"Oooh, Nibbana! What is that? Is it heaven?"

"The goal of Buddhism is the remainderless fading & cessation, renunciation, relinquishment, release, & letting go of the craving that makes for further becoming — accompanied by passion & delight, relishing now here & now there — i.e., craving for sensual pleasure, craving for becoming, craving for non-becoming."
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6491
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Nibbāna

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Peter,
Peter wrote:I do wonder why the word "nibbana" has been rarified. Why not nirodha? Or any of the other words in the third noble truth? Why don't we capitalize "dispassion" or "cessation" like we do "Unbinding"?
The different terms are understood by abhidhammikas to be all related to Nibbāna, but focussing upon different aspects of it. And so Nibbāna is the unconditioned dhamma itself, while nirodha is (usually) the cognizing of Nibbāna at the moment of path consciousness. I guess there's no need to capitalize an experience that lasts only a moment.
Best wishes,
Dhammanando
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Nibbāna

Post by kc2dpt »

Dhammanando wrote:Nibbāna is the unconditioned dhamma itself, while nirodha is (usually) the cognizing of Nibbāna at the moment of path consciousness.
I guess I don't understand why it is understood this way. When I look at a quote like this...

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana." — AN 3.32

...to me "nibbana" looks like just one word in a string of words and that usually means they are all to be taken as either synonyms or at least referring to the same thing. But it seems you are saying that is not the case? I admit my knowledge of abhidhamma is minimal.
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
DNS
Site Admin
Posts: 17187
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 4:15 am
Location: Las Vegas, Nevada, Estados Unidos de América
Contact:

Re: Nibbāna

Post by DNS »

Hi Chris,

The typical answer from the Suttas is:

'Reappears' doesn't apply.
'Does not reappear' doesn't apply.
'Both does & does not reappear' doesn't apply.
'Neither reappears nor does not reappear' doesn't apply." (MN 72 and at other places too)

But I suppose that would not be satisfactory to the difficult and important questions you raise in the OP.

For those of us who don't like the sound of a permanent end and complete non-existence, the second line can be comforting.

Perhaps it is our craving for existence and want of a self that makes us ask these things and I mean that for me too. :tongue: I imagine these questions come up for most of us, from time to time.
User avatar
Jechbi
Posts: 1268
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:38 am
Contact:

Re: Nibbāna

Post by Jechbi »

Hi Chris,
Chris wrote:It is said that our language is unable to describe Nibbāna using the concepts we are familiar with. ... Is anyone, using the scriptures which have been preserved for us, able to give a relatively coherent explanation for the unenlightened?
I doubt it.

From here, I like this:
Consciousness without feature,
without end,
luminous all around:
Here water, earth, fire, & wind
have no footing.
Here long & short
coarse & fine
fair & foul
name & form
are all brought to an end.
With the cessation of [the activity of] consciousness
each is here brought to an end.'"
But I'm sure you've seen that several dozen times, if not more.

I'm with Peter on this one. According to the scriptures that have been preserved for us, it's the cessation of dukkha. Wow. That alone is pretty powerful. Beyond that, I'm not sure a whole lot of explanation is useful. It can't be that complicated.

Metta
:)
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6491
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Nibbāna

Post by Dhammanando »

Ven. Mahākaccāna on the two Nibbāna-dhātus:
  • Herein, living beings have two diseases: ignorance and craving-for-existence. Two medicines have been prescribed by the Blessed One for the curing of these two diseases: samatha and vipassanā. Using these two medicines one realizes two cures: deliverance-of-the-heart due to the fading of attachment and deliverance-by-wisdom due to the fading of ignorance.

    Herein, samatha is the medicine for the disease of craving, whose cure is deliverance-of-the-heart due to the fading of attachment. Vipassanā is the medicine for the disease of ignorance, whose cure is the deliverance-by-wisdom due to the fading of ignorance.

    For the Blessed One has said:

    “Two dhammas must be fully known: nāma and rūpa.”
    “Two dhammas must be abandoned: ignorance and craving-for-existence.”
    “Two dhammas must be cultivated: samatha and vipassanā.”
    “Two dhammas must be realized: knowledge and deliverance.”
    (Dasuttara Sutta, DN. 34)

    Herein, one cultivating samatha understands rūpa; understanding rūpa he abandons craving; abandoning craving he realizes deliverance-of-the-heart due to the fading of attachment. One cultivating vipassanā understands nāma; understanding nāma he abandons ignorance; abandoning ignorance he realizes deliverance-by-wisdom due to the fading of ignorance.

    When a bhikkhu has fully known two dhammas: nāma and rūpa, then likewise has he abandoned two dhammas: ignorance and craving-for-existence. Two dhammas have been cultivated by him: samatha and vipassanā, and two dhammas have been realized: knowledge and deliverance.

    At this point a bhikkhu becomes one who has completed his task. This is the extinction-element with stuff remaining (sa-upādisesā nibbānadhātu).

    Upon the termination of his life-span and surcease of his life-faculty, this dukkha ceases and no further dukkha arises. Herein, the cessation, the subsiding, of these aggregates, elements and sense-bases, and the absence of rebirth-linking and absence of manifestation of any further aggregates, elements and sense-bases – this is the extinction-element with no stuff remaining (anupādisesā nibbānadhātu).
    (Peṭakopadesa 123-4)
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6491
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Nibbāna

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Peter,
Peter wrote:When I look at a quote like this...

"This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Nibbana." — AN 3.32

...to me "nibbana" looks like just one word in a string of words and that usually means they are all to be taken as either synonyms or at least referring to the same thing.
Yes, that's why I inserted the qualifier "usually". Nirodha actually gets glossed in various ways by the commentators and there are some contexts where it is taken as identical to nibbana.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Nibbāna

Post by kc2dpt »

there are some contexts where [nirodha] is taken as identical to nibbana.
As opposed to nibbana being taken as identical to nirodha?

What I don't understand is why NIbbana is taken to mean something more than simply "end of suffering". Is there a particular scripture which highlights this distinction?

In other words, if I were to assert that nibbana is nothing more than another way of saying "end of suffering", what scripture could we look at which would clearly show my assertion to be wrong (or at least highly suspect)?

Thanks for the help. :)
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
User avatar
piotr
Posts: 412
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 4:33 pm
Location: Khettadesa

Re: Nibbāna

Post by piotr »

Hi, :smile:
Chris wrote:It is said that our language is unable to describe Nibbāna using the concepts we are familiar with. My understanding always comes up against a brick wall when thinking about Nibbāna.
That's not strange because expressions and speech are results of perception:
  • "And what is the result of perception? Perception has expression as its result, I tell you. However a person perceives something, that is how he expresses it: 'I have this sort of perception.' This is called the result of perception." — Nibbedhika-sutta (A. 6:63)
But final unbinding in the here and now is a cessation of perception and feeling:
  • "'Unbinding in the here and now, unbinding in the here and now' it is said. To what extent is unbinding in the here and now described by the Blessed One?"

    "Now there is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful qualities — enters & remains in the first jhāna: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that unbinding in the here and now is described by the Blessed One, though with a sequel."

    "Furthermore, with the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhāna... the third jhāna... the fourth jhāna... the dimension of the infinitude of space... the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness... the dimension of nothingness... the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception. He remains touching with his body in whatever way there is an opening there, and he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that unbinding in the here and now is described by the Blessed One, though with a sequel."

    "Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as he sees with discernment, the mental fermentations go to their total end. And he knows it through discernment. It is to this extent that unbinding in the here and now without a sequel is described by the Blessed One." — Diṭṭhadhammanibbāna-sutta (A. 9:47)
So when perception is ceased there is no cause by which expressions, speech, or words might arise afterwards to describe such event.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...
User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 6491
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Mae Wang Huai Rin, Li District, Lamphun

Re: Nibbāna

Post by Dhammanando »

Hi Peter,
Peter wrote:What I don't understand is why NIbbana is taken to mean something more than simply "end of suffering".
The short answer is that some suttas do seem to suggest that, while others suggest that nibbana is something more than that. Since different suttas might be read as supporting different conceptions of nibbana, a major part of the interpretive task is to determine which utterances should be taken as requiring further elaboration or qualification and which should be treated as definitive. Disagreement on this question appears to have been a major cause of the controversies regarding nibbana among the Indian Buddhist schools.

I have to go out now, but I have more to write later in reply to your question. In the meantime you might find the attached article of interest. It's an excerpt from Noa Ronkin's recent book, Early Buddhist Metaphysics.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
nibbana&individuation.pdf
(261.34 KiB) Downloaded 172 times
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.


In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Nibbāna

Post by Ben »

Thanks Ajahn for that article.
Metta

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
kc2dpt
Posts: 957
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 2009 3:48 pm

Re: Nibbāna

Post by kc2dpt »

Dhammanando wrote:Disagreement on this question appears to have been a major cause of the controversies regarding nibbana among the Indian Buddhist schools.
OK, well at least I know it's not an easy issue. :thinking:
In the meantime you might find the attached article of interest.
I'll take a look. Thanks for the help. :)
- Peter

Be heedful and you will accomplish your goal.
Post Reply