The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and scriptures.
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mikenz66
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,
retrofuturist wrote: It is interesting to note that in the suttas you quote, he "confirms" the teaching in question with a "So it is, Blessed One! So it is, Fortunate One!" refrain but he does not do so in SN 6:1.

There could be reasons put forward pertaining to the depth of the teaching of dependent origination, but it seems more plausible that at the time in question Brahma Sahampati didn't know that "so it is", because the Buddha had yet to teach Dhamma. Therefore, he had no basis upon which to proclaim ""So it is, Blessed One!"
But note that those two suttas are also placed during that time before he did any teaching.

:anjali:
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Interesting - what do you make of that?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by kirk5a »

retrofuturist wrote: The point of the question...
kirk5a wrote:That's what came to my mind at that one.
Fair enough. I hope the above clarification of what I meant helps.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Not really. So what you meant by asking "Is all the Dhamma "hard to see", or just some aspects of it?" was that you wanted to make the "point" that "some things are harder to see than others - which ones do you think are harder?"

And when you asked that, apparently you didn't want to hear what I had to say about just how many aspect to "this Dhamma" in question there might be, or whether looking at "this Dhamma" in terms of various aspects which are to be understood, is quite what, at bottom, the Buddha was talking about when he spoke about "this Dhamma."
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Kirk,
kirk5a wrote:And when you asked that, apparently you didn't want to hear what I had to say about just how many aspect to "this Dhamma" in question there might be
Not at all - I just said that "I do not see how quantity is important" in the context of the Buddha's teaching challenge. That doesn't mean I don't want to hear it, it just means I don't see the connection. I assume then that the following from you is an attempt to demonstrate the connection, but I apologise that I do not understand the distinction you are trying to draw.
kirk5a wrote:.. or whether looking at "this Dhamma" in terms of various aspects which are to be understood, is quite what, at bottom, the Buddha was talking about when he spoke about "this Dhamma."
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

mikenz66 wrote:
retrofuturist wrote: It is interesting to note that in the suttas you quote, he "confirms" the teaching in question with a "So it is, Blessed One! So it is, Fortunate One!" refrain but he does not do so in SN 6:1.

There could be reasons put forward pertaining to the depth of the teaching of dependent origination, but it seems more plausible that at the time in question Brahma Sahampati didn't know that "so it is", because the Buddha had yet to teach Dhamma. Therefore, he had no basis upon which to proclaim ""So it is, Blessed One!"
But note that those two suttas are also placed during that time before he did any teaching.
retrofuturist wrote: Interesting - what do you make of that?
The quick obvious answer would be that Brahma Sahampati was written (spoken :)) into the Suttas as a "voice of authority" to confirm that the Buddha is on the right track.

By the way, Ajahn Sucitto mentions Brhahma Sahampati's statement about the spiritual faculties at the start of the talk that Aloka kindly referred to here:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p178228" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
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DarwidHalim
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by DarwidHalim »

It is not a challenge.

Buddha himself know he is the 4th Buddha coming to this earth. He himself know all previous buddha has disciples that can be saved. He himself know in the future Buddha Maitreya will come after him and the dharma will be alive again.

He knew all of that.

With this background, thinking he cannot see there are people with little eyes in their eyes, are a joke.

If I know previous buddha has so many disciples that can be saved, and in the future Buddha Maitreya will again have so many disciples that also can be saved, I really cannot see the point why at this moment, there are no people with little dust that I can save.

Talking about clairvoyance, it seems that Brahma Sahampati can read Buddha's mind. This is not possible if Buddha doesn't have the intention for him to know. Buddha disciple can have cliarvoyant such as reading the mind of ordinary people, but they cannot read the mind of Buddha. They have to ask. There are level of clairvoyant. You may be able to read his mind, but it doesn't mean you can read her mind. It depends on whether his dust is more or less than you.

So, the act of the challenge, actually is Buddha idea for the request of turning the dharma wheel, which in this case can be for the higher realm where that Brahma belong to.

This is another perspective to see the issue.
I am not here nor there.
I am not right nor wrong.
I do not exist neither non-exist.
I am not I nor non-I.
I am not in samsara nor nirvana.
To All Buddhas, I bow down for the teaching of emptiness. Thank You!
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Zom
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by Zom »

Firstly, is the challenge itself even real, or is it simply an opportunity for Brahma Sahampati to make great merit? Is it an apocryphal text? Hagiography? etc.
As I see it - it was real.
Secondly, assuming it is real, how do you think the fact he was dealing with a great diversity of "beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world" impacted the form of his teaching?
I don't see the point in this kind of question. I think there is no doubt that he taught things according to the readiness of a certain individual.
Thirdly, in terms of stating what would be difficult for others to see, the Buddha says that "For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me." Do you believe there is there any reason why he specifically mentioned aspects of the teaching directly connected with "this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising*", and omitted reference to other key teachings such as the five aggregates, six senses, four elements, kamma, jhana, the Noble Eightfold Path, rebirth etc.? Sure, he couldn't mention everything, but was the choice of subject matter that appears in the sutta intentional and of significance? Is all the Dhamma "hard to see", or just some aspects of it?
As I see it "Hard to See" here means that understanding that comes with two stages of stream-entry and of arahantship. This is very difficult for people to understand anatta even on conceptual level, especially anatta of yourself (stream-entry). Not to speak of a complete cessation of psycological experience of "my self" (arahantship) as well as complete cessation of every kind of experience and feelings in final nibbana. Anatta and paticca-samuppada is the major Buddha's "invention". Because of not knowing this teaching such powerful ascetics as Uruvella Kassapa, Bahiya and ect. couldn't reach nibbana. But hearing this teaching, grasping this idea of anatta, they almost immidiately realized nibbana, attained arahantship. The same would have happened with Alara Kalama and Udakka Ramaputta, if they had a chance to hear Buddha. And as we see from other suttas, for example DN1, the major point in wrong views is the idea of "self". No matter what was the view or philosophical system in those ancient times - it was based on the idea of "self" (all 62 views listed there). So this is anatta idea that is hard to see, hard to accept as a truth.
Last edited by Zom on Thu Mar 15, 2012 8:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Retro,
Thanks for leaving this 'open.'
retrofuturist wrote:Open are the doors to the Deathless
to those with ears.
Let them show their conviction.
Perceiving trouble, O Brahma,
I did not tell people the refined,
sublime Dhamma.
just a side note, This was used by Ajahn Sumedho for Amaravatis opening, and was sometimes mentioned by those who were unlocking the gate, temple & other buildings.
Then Brahma Sahampati, thinking, "The Blessed One has given his consent to teach of Dhamma," bowed down to the Blessed One and, circling him on the right, disappeared right there.[/b]
I have bolded the aspects of this sutta that represent the challenge that faced the Buddha in communicating the "the refined, sublime Dhamma", which "is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise."[/quote]
the chant used to request a talk on Dhamma although not from here (not 100% sure where the reference indicates) expresses what happened
Requesting a Dhamma Talk(BV,v.1) wrote:“Brahmā ca lokādhipatī sahampatī, Kat’añjalī adhivaraṃ ayācatha; Santīdha sattāpparajakkha-jātikā, Desetu dhammaṃ anukamp’imaṃ pajaṃ.”
“The Brahma-god Sahampatī, Lord of the cosmos, with palms joined in reverence, Requested a favour: Some beings here have little dust in their eyes, please teach the Dhamma out of compassion for them.”

Firstly, is the challenge itself even real, or is it simply an opportunity for Brahma Sahampati to make great merit? Is it an apocryphal text? Hagiography? etc.
I personally feel that when The Lord Buddha looked over the World, the mass of people who wouldn't understand, or would understand with great difficulty were so prevalent that the Lord Buddha may of felt that meeting those who would understand would be quite rare and the task of talking to those who would not understand would of been so burdensome it could take up to much time, and not give an opportunity to those who would of understood to hear the True Dhamma, or be a distraction for them?
The Lord Buddha may of been looking in general, like at a pie chart, or at a colour coded pin location of all people, and it wasn't until the Brahma Sahampati mentioned to The Lord Buddha that there are those who can see, that they were the ones given sole attention.
I have heard that past Sammasambuddhas who didn't teach or lay down many much in the way of Dhammavinaya used their psychic powers to teach, they looked at a beings mind and knowing what was the most effective teaching for them, gave it! so less situational teachings would of happened where a group would have things explained to them in a way they could all understand, such as the Fire Sermon, or teachings explaining the uses/ins & outs of the practical/philosophical aspects of the teachings were less common so plenty of Arahants but few people who were like or close to Sariputta.
Secondly, assuming it is real, how do you think the fact he was dealing with a great diversity of "beings with little dust in their eyes and those with much, those with keen faculties and those with dull, those with good attributes and those with bad, those easy to teach and those hard, some of them seeing disgrace and danger in the other world" impacted the form of his teaching?
see above also.
He taught as the situation arose, when something presented itself which could be used as a teaching he used it, so there was a wide veriety of means to understand the truth or simply improve oneself in order to gain a foothold in the True Dhamma and progress from there, there was no distinction between the maps people used and everyone could see where they were on them, or how to get to the goal, like the difference between a tomtom device and a street map, people were given basic tools needed for the journey and needed to think, they could navigate with a 2004 road map and the road signs in 2012, not being completely reliant upon specific instructions given by one who knows.
A builder and a handyman is another example, a builder has all the information/tools to do something, and may only need advise over a phone, where as a handyman has may need to hire or buy more tools/experts, or undergo a more comprehensive training to do the same job, and the Builder can also anticipate better what needs to be done for better more lasting results.
Thirdly, in terms of stating what would be difficult for others to see, the Buddha says that "For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me." Do you believe there is there any reason why he specifically mentioned aspects of the teaching directly connected with "this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising*", and omitted reference to other key teachings such as the five aggregates, six senses, four elements, kamma, jhana, the Noble Eightfold Path, rebirth etc.? Sure, he couldn't mention everything, but was the choice of subject matter that appears in the sutta intentional and of significance? Is all the Dhamma "hard to see", or just some aspects of it?

* - Including in cessation mode, as indicated by the sutta portion immediately following.
the not mentioning everything could of been a person specific instruction, like asking for directions when you know your lost, the basic tools where already there, or accessible, it was simply a case of nudging in the right direction.


just to note these are my own Ideas and I am being general not
Feel free also to discuss any other specific issues that interest you under the broad heading of "The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma".

Metta,
Retro. :)[/quote]
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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mikenz66
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

It occurred to me that perhaps we should be careful about reading this passage:
The Buddha wrote: "This Dhamma that I have attained is deep, hard to see, hard to realize, peaceful, refined, beyond the scope of conjecture, subtle, to-be-experienced by the wise. But this generation delights in attachment, is excited by attachment, enjoys attachment. For a generation delighting in attachment, excited by attachment, enjoying attachment, this/that conditionality and dependent co-arising are hard to see. This state, too, is hard to see: the resolution of all fabrications, the relinquishment of all acquisitions, the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding. And if I were to teach the Dhamma and if others would not understand me, that would be tiresome for me, troublesome for me."
And the related:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Buddha wrote: "Don't say that, Ananda. Don't say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It's because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations.
One could observe that the problem is not "for a generation unable to understand complicated concepts", it's "for a generation delighting in attachment...".
The Buddha despairs of the generation "relinquishing acquisistions, ending craving", not "failing the Dhamma-study exam".

Since the Dhamma is "beyond the scope of conjecture", it's clearly not some intellectual pursuit...

Words like "understand", are, perhaps, a misleading translation in this case if they invoke associations with intellectual analysis.

:anjali:
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

It is the Dhamma that is profound, hard to realize etc.... and that is so independent of the concepts the Buddha used to express it.

Whether the concepts themselves are profound, hard to realize etc. is another matter, but it is certainly related to the challenge the Buddha had at hand. Whether the concepts are simple or multi-layered etc. they must still be pointing to that which is profound, hard to realize etc. If they are interpreted in such a way that they point to the facile and obvious, there may be grounds for concern.

The Blessed One was communicating something very profound, hard to realize etc. and (as had been pointed out by others above) had to pitch different messages to different audiences of different capabilities. It's not unsurprising perhaps, in the scheme of the "gradual teaching", with gradual progress with it's long slope (i.e. beginning, middle and end), that various aspects of the Dhamma of increasing subtlety or profundity (both of which are probably a better choice of word than "complexity") are introduced at different points along that learning curve.

For example, I don't think (from the sutta evidence available, at least) that the Buddha would sit down a complete noob layperson and explain the ins-and-outs of dependent origination to them. There would be no point. Something simple, morality-based, uncontroversial (i.e. to not unncessarily upset the listener) would produce better results than something that resulted in bewilderment.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

Sure, but what does "hard to realise" actually mean?

Something can be hard to realise because it takes practice and persistence, like training to run marathon distances, but it's quite clear what has to be done.
Or it can be hard to realise because, in addition to taking time, it is very difficult to understand the technicalities, like studying for a degree in mathematics.

I think the interesting thing about your questions is whether or not realising the Dhamma hinges on understanding some intricate technicalities, like the math example. Or whether, to paraphrase a number of teachers: "Doing this practice is extremely simple, keeping up the effort is hard."

:anjali:
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by fig tree »

The idea that an "awake one" would in any meaningful sense be reluctant to help out has always seemed very out of place to me.

I have no way of knowing, but my gut reaction has been to suspect that what really happened is that the Buddha described to some of his followers how upon awakening he had reflected on the comfort of awakening, the challenges of leading anybody else to it, and the benefits to the many of deciding to do so in spite of those challenges (with or without a friendly deva to serve as a sounding board), and that the story that has come down to us is a kind of dramatization.

It provides an opportunity to highlight the merits of the gradual path, that benefits people of all levels of nearness to awakening.

Fig Tree
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:Sure, but what does "hard to realise" actually mean?
Does anyone happen to know the Pali words used that have been translated as "hard to realise"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by kirk5a »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:Sure, but what does "hard to realise" actually mean?
Does anyone happen to know the Pali words used that have been translated as "hard to realise"?

Metta,
Retro. :)
duranubodha
Anubodha [anu + budh] awakening; perception, recogni- tion, understanding S i.126 (?) = A v.46 (anubodhiŋ as aor. of anubodhati?); Pug 21; Miln 233. Freq. in compn. ananubodha (adj.) not understanding, not knowing the truth S ii.92; iii.261; v.431; A ii.1; iv.105; Dhs 390, 1061; VvA 321 (= anavabodha) and duranubodha (adj.) hard to understand, difficult to know D i.12, 22; S i.136.
http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... :1043.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

This Dhamma is hard to awaken to. Owing to the mind's attachments, which are difficult to release.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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Re: The Buddha's Challenge in Teaching the Dhamma

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

Thanks Kirk. :thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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