Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Thu May 14, 2009 9:26 pm

adosa wrote:I will say, as an aside, that the compassion, concern, and wisdom displayed in this thread is heart-warming..... and I hope, Flying Ox, encouragement for you to heed the advice.

adosa


Well, I don't think it is very compassionate nor very wise if you ask me. You encourage me to either commit myself to being insane or else get more religious. That does not sound like true concern to me. That sounds a bit hateful, but may all the love in the universe be sent your way, all of you.

Sincerely,

flyingOx
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby MMK23 » Fri May 15, 2009 3:10 am

flyingOx wrote:
adosa wrote:I will say, as an aside, that the compassion, concern, and wisdom displayed in this thread is heart-warming..... and I hope, Flying Ox, encouragement for you to heed the advice.

adosa


Well, I don't think it is very compassionate nor very wise if you ask me. You encourage me to either commit myself to being insane or else get more religious. That does not sound like true concern to me. That sounds a bit hateful, but may all the love in the universe be sent your way, all of you.

Sincerely,

flyingOx


Hey! I was very kind to you. I'm still waiting for your book to be written though :-)
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby Cittasanto » Fri May 15, 2009 4:29 am

flyingOx wrote:Well, I don't think it is very compassionate nor very wise if you ask me. You encourage me to either commit myself to being insane or else get more religious. That does not sound like true concern to me. That sounds a bit hateful, but may all the love in the universe be sent your way, all of you.

Sincerely,

flyingOx


If you expect kindness to be only one way you miss the kindness that isn't that way try reading MN58
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Sat May 16, 2009 2:41 pm

Manapa wrote:
flyingOx wrote:Well, I don't think it is very compassionate nor very wise if you ask me. You encourage me to either commit myself to being insane or else get more religious. That does not sound like true concern to me. That sounds a bit hateful, but may all the love in the universe be sent your way, all of you.

Sincerely,

flyingOx


If you expect kindness to be only one way you miss the kindness that isn't that way try reading MN58


I think that many misunderstand me. I am not shy to rebuke. I welcome correction when it is needed. IF it is needed. I discipline myself far greater than anyone else can, and yes, even in this statement that I am making has a subtle tint of pride in it. I am well aware of that. However, many seem to be under the impression that it is warrented to go about pointing out other people's flaws and instigating gossip based on fear by misreading what others have said in order to be seen as the one with the answers who knows how things should be or how things should be fixed. Some believe that because they have been in a religion longer, have meditated longer, and know more words of wisdom that they obviously know more truth than someone who happens to be new to thier particular religion. This is not always the case:

"A true seeker of truth though he may speak only little of the
Buddha’s word. He may not be able to recite extensively from
religious texts. But, if he belongs to the teaching of the Buddha
assiduously, lives in accordance with the teachings of the
Buddha, if he has got rid of passion, ill-will and delusion, he
has well penetrated experience and is free from clinging to
worldly things, he is a partaker of the life of a renunciate."

Dhammapada
Verse 20

And in saying this also, I do not mean to be preaching. I merely bring this verse to your attention for consideration.

Perfect peace to all.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby Cittasanto » Sat May 16, 2009 4:49 pm

is that so!
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby adosa » Sat May 16, 2009 6:19 pm

I think that many misunderstand me. I am not shy to rebuke. I welcome correction when it is needed. IF it is needed. I discipline myself far greater than anyone else can, and yes, even in this statement that I am making has a subtle tint of pride in it. I am well aware of that. However, many seem to be under the impression that it is warrented to go about pointing out other people's flaws and instigating gossip based on fear by misreading what others have said in order to be seen as the one with the answers who knows how things should be or how things should be fixed. Some believe that because they have been in a religion longer, have meditated longer, and know more words of wisdom that they obviously know more truth than someone who happens to be new to thier particular religion. This is not always the case:


My post was in reference to the fact that many people here showed considerable compassion to offer many kind words of advice. I considered that more fuel for your practice. I did not read any of it as an attack on you.

I have no idea if you have reached any level of awakening or not. However, the advice was to either seek professional help OR speak to an elder with whom you could bounce your experiences off. The Dhamma is open for inspection. I would think that awakening would also be open for the same inspection. No harm in speaking with someone who may have also experienced what you have. They may even have advice not to cling to the notion of awakening. They may have advice as to how to move on from Stream Entry to Full awakening. Just a thought.

adosa :smile:
"To avoid all evil, to cultivate good, and to cleanse one's mind — this is the teaching of the Buddhas" - Dhammapada 183
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Sat May 16, 2009 7:36 pm

adosa wrote:
I think that many misunderstand me. I am not shy to rebuke. I welcome correction when it is needed. IF it is needed. I discipline myself far greater than anyone else can, and yes, even in this statement that I am making has a subtle tint of pride in it. I am well aware of that. However, many seem to be under the impression that it is warrented to go about pointing out other people's flaws and instigating gossip based on fear by misreading what others have said in order to be seen as the one with the answers who knows how things should be or how things should be fixed. Some believe that because they have been in a religion longer, have meditated longer, and know more words of wisdom that they obviously know more truth than someone who happens to be new to thier particular religion. This is not always the case:


My post was in reference to the fact that many people here showed considerable compassion to offer many kind words of advice. I considered that more fuel for your practice. I did not read any of it as an attack on you.

I have no idea if you have reached any level of awakening or not. However, the advice was to either seek professional help OR speak to an elder with whom you could bounce your experiences off. The Dhamma is open for inspection. I would think that awakening would also be open for the same inspection. No harm in speaking with someone who may have also experienced what you have. They may even have advice not to cling to the notion of awakening. They may have advice as to how to move on from Stream Entry to Full awakening. Just a thought.

adosa :smile:


And like I said before, also: I would love to talk to a Theravada Teacher, but they just might expect moocho bucks, too. :broke: .
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Sun May 17, 2009 1:04 am

Being so new to Buddhism, I did not know that it was so politically incorrect, considered to be so ill-mannered, and generally frowned upon by the extremely religious to be outwardly joyous in celebratory proclamation of one’s own awakening and release from the shackles of despair. It reminds me of verse 79 of the Dhammapada:

“At the Jētavana Monastery, Monk Mahàkappina while resting
during the night or during the day would often say, “Oh, what
happiness!” (“Ahō Sukham!”). The monks, hearing him saying
this so many times a day, told the Buddha about it. To them the
Buddha replied, “My son Kappina, having had the taste of the
Dhamma, lives happily with a serene mind; he is saying these
words of exultation repeatedly with reference to Nibbàna.”

Metta and karuna
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claims

Postby Jechbi » Sun May 17, 2009 1:25 am

Hi flyingOx,

flyingOx wrote:Being so new to Buddhism, I did not know that it was so politically incorrect, considered to be so ill-mannered, and generally frowned upon by the extremely religious to be outwardly joyous in celebratory proclamation of one’s own awakening and release from the shackles of despair.

Ven. Huifeng put it well on a different board, with regard to a person who proclaims the ability to remember past lives:
Ven. Huifeng wrote:One of the reasons why the Buddha admonished his disciples against making such claims outwardly ... was to avoid people making such claims in order to woo the crowds. "Oh, I heard that so-and-so has higher knowledge, wow! let's go and make a whole lot of offerings to him, etc". I think somewhere this was likened to a stripper showing off their body for the audience, parading around ones attainments, and so forth.

As a higher knowledge, such statements are only one little step away from claims to "I am enlightened", "I have realized cessation", and the like. Even if one has reached this level of purity, and not many have, to go around and proclaim it unasked in a public forum is pretty dubious.

[snip]

As for conceit, well, this is such a deep seated affliction, that the only persons who do not have it are arhats. It is, at least, the tendency to attribute things to "me" and so forth.

As you become more familiar with Buddhism, you may arrive at a better understanding of the reaction people have to these kinds of proclamations.

Best wishes
:smile:
Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun May 17, 2009 1:27 am

Hi flyingOx,

It is not that it is politically incorrect to boast about spiritual attainments, it is that actually it can be quite easy to see if someone is boasting about spiritual attainments in Buddhism.

1. A monk or nun can be expelled from the Order for boasting about attainments he or she does not have.
2. A highly realized person would lose interest in boasting about their attainments.
3. A lay man (or woman) who attains full enlightenment ordains within 7 days or dies before he has the chance to ordain within those 7 days.

It is not that lay people cannot attain enlightenment, they can, but once they do, the everyday trivialities of lay life no longer interest the person and he (she) ordains.

From all appearances, you are not a monk, correct?
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Sun May 17, 2009 2:16 am

TheDhamma wrote:Hi flyingOx,

It is not that it is politically incorrect to boast about spiritual attainments, it is that actually it can be quite easy to see if someone is boasting about spiritual attainments in Buddhism.

1. A monk or nun can be expelled from the Order for boasting about attainments he or she does not have.
2. A highly realized person would lose interest in boasting about their attainments.
3. A lay man (or woman) who attains full enlightenment ordains within 7 days or dies before he has the chance to ordain within those 7 days.

It is not that lay people cannot attain enlightenment, they can, but once they do, the everyday trivialities of lay life no longer interest the person and he (she) ordains.

From all appearances, you are not a monk, correct?


Boasting? Who is boasting? Celebrating and being joyous is not boasting. Seriously...I am beginning to think that Buddhists are way too religious. No, I am not a monk in the sense of being ordained in any actual religious organization, but I feel as if i were the equivalent of a monk. Dies? What do you mean one would die if they attained enlightenment and remained a lay person? I'm not so sure that I belong to ANY religious organization or even should. There seems to be way too many egg shells to walk upon.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby Dhammanando » Sun May 17, 2009 2:46 am

flyingOx wrote:Being so new to Buddhism, I did not know that it was so politically incorrect, considered to be so ill-mannered, and generally frowned upon by the extremely religious to be outwardly joyous in celebratory proclamation of one’s own awakening and release from the shackles of despair. It reminds me of verse 79 of the Dhammapada


In the Dhammapada commentary, to whom does the arahant Mahākappina exclaim, ‘aho sukhaṃ’?
In the Udāna and Vinaya, to whom does the arahant Bhaddiya exclaim, ‘aho sukhaṃ’?

In both cases it would appear that the elders are talking to themselves, unaware that there are other monks in the vicinity, and thus not intending to make any impression on anyone. This can be more clearly seen in the Bhaddiya narrative, which is explicit that the elder would make this exclamation while dwelling at tree roots or in empty places. That being so, their ‘aho sukhaṃ’ utterances are not ‘proclamations’.

Now if Mahākappina and Bhaddiya had gone into the midst of assemblies of bhikkhus, or into crowded marketplaces, and yelled out, ‘Woo hoo, look at me!’ then the comparison of yourself with them might be apt. But since they did nothing of the kind, there is simply no comparing their ‘aho sukhaṃ’ with yours.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Sun May 17, 2009 2:48 am

TheDhamma, if you mean dying as far as a metaphorical death is concerned, then yes, I have died. If you mean that the person that I used to be is dead, then yes, I am dead. If you mean that I would actually, physically die if I became enlightened and did not become an actual Buddhist monk, then I am sorry, but I just don't believe that is true.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Sun May 17, 2009 2:56 am

Dhammanando wrote:
flyingOx wrote:Being so new to Buddhism, I did not know that it was so politically incorrect, considered to be so ill-mannered, and generally frowned upon by the extremely religious to be outwardly joyous in celebratory proclamation of one’s own awakening and release from the shackles of despair. It reminds me of verse 79 of the Dhammapada


In the Dhammapada commentary, to whom does the arahant Mahākappina exclaim, ‘aho sukhaṃ’?
In the Udāna and Vinaya, to whom does the arahant Bhaddiya exclaim, ‘aho sukhaṃ’?

In both cases it would appear that the elders are talking to themselves, unaware that there are other monks in the vicinity, and thus not intending to make any impression on anyone. This can be more clearly seen in the Bhaddiya narrative, which is explicit that the elder would make this exclamation while dwelling at tree roots or in empty places. That being so, their ‘aho sukhaṃ’ utterances are not ‘proclamations’.

Now if Mahākappina and Bhaddiya had gone into the midst of assemblies of bhikkhus, or into crowded marketplaces, and yelled out, ‘Woo hoo, look at me!’ then the comparison of yourself with them might be apt. But since they did nothing of the kind, there is simply no comparing their ‘aho sukhaṃ’ with yours.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu


I see, so there is just no place at all for fellow Buddhists to celebrate each other's happiness or deliverance, outwardly? Well, perhaps I WAS correct in my assessments of Buddhism being overbearingly religious. Perhaps I would make a better Hare Krishna. :shrug:
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby Dhammanando » Sun May 17, 2009 3:22 am

Hi Ox,

I see, so there is just no place at all for fellow Buddhists to celebrate each other's happiness or deliverance, outwardly?


Well, in fact there is a place for it. The Buddha commended the "divine abiding" of muditā —empathetic joy at the success or happiness of others— as a quality worth developing. And when muditā arises, the wholesome consciousness that it accompanies may well generate those mind-produced derivative materialities known as bodily intimation and verbal intimation, conventionally taking such forms as 'clapping', 'cheering' and suchlike.

However, not every sort of success or happiness is worthy of muditā. For example, a successful bank robber wouldn't be a suitable object for muditā, nor would a happy person whose happiness is delusional. For these persons the appropriate divine abiding is not muditā but compassion.

Best wishes,
Dhammanando Bhikkhu
    ...and this thought arose in the mind of the Blessed One:
    “Who lives without reverence lives miserably.”
    Uruvela Sutta, A.ii.20

    It were endless to dispute upon everything that is disputable.
    — William Penn Some Fruits of Solitude,
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun May 17, 2009 3:24 am

Dhammanando wrote:Well, in fact there is a place for it. The Buddha commended the "divine abiding" of muditā —empathetic joy at the success or happiness of others— as a quality worth developing. And when muditā arises, the wholesome consciousness that it accompanies may well generate those mind-produced derivative materialities known as bodily intimation and verbal intimation, conventionally taking such forms as 'clapping', 'cheering' and suchlike.

However, not every sort of success or happiness is worthy of muditā. For example, a successful bank robber wouldn't be a suitable object for muditā, nor would a happy person whose happiness is delusional. For these persons the appropriate divine abiding is not muditā but compassion.

:thumbsup: :goodpost:
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby Ben » Sun May 17, 2009 3:27 am

Hi flyingOx

flyingOx wrote:
I see, so there is just no place at all for fellow Buddhists to celebrate each other's happiness or deliverance, outwardly? Well, perhaps I WAS correct in my assessments of Buddhism being overbearingly religious. Perhaps I would make a better Hare Krishna. :shrug:


Perhaps your 'celebration' should be done within the context of a meeting or communication between yourself and your teacher or an ordained sangha member in whom you have confidence. Public declarations of one's attainments, as you have done here, will invite scrutiny.
Metta

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but great rivers flow silently.

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sobbhesu padaresu ca,
saṇantā yanti kusobbhā,
tuṇhīyanti mahodadhī.

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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby flyingOx » Sun May 17, 2009 3:33 am

Well, folks, it has been nice chatting with you all. Just consider me another passer-by, another wanderer wandering through, another unenlightened :woohoo: !

So close, but no cigar...too crazy :cookoo: to be considered one of the circle of stars. :group:

So long, it's been fun...and according to most...very wrong :alien:

:quote:

:tongue:

Time to enjoy my enlightenment elsewhere :idea: :arrow:

But may only loving kindness be yours
and please don't draw too many swords :jedi:

Love you all.

bye :hello:
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby zowdu » Sun May 17, 2009 4:35 pm

Well, at least it rhymed.
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Re: Yikes! People are noticing the change in me.

Postby Cittasanto » Sun May 17, 2009 5:06 pm

Well I do not remember any passage or teaching where enlightenment had any pride known about or not.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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