"The Deathless" (amata)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:I thought the essay was reasonably clear:
Not that I have read everything of Ven Thanissaro's, but of what I have read, this is, in my opinion, the best thing he has written, and it is quite clear.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by mikenz66 »

Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...
It's realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place: of here, or there, or between the two.
:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...
It's realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place: of here, or there, or between the two.
:anjali:
Mike
Or the Buddha, as in the Bahiya Sutta:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Amata.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...
Or, perhaps he actually knows what he is talking about.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:Or the Buddha, as in the Bahiya Sutta:


"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote: Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
Certainly does not change or challenge my point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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kirk5a
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by kirk5a »

tiltbillings wrote:Certainly does not change or challenge my point.
"Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing" is probably amata, don't you think?
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

kirk5a wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:Certainly does not change or challenge my point.
"Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing" is probably amata, don't you think?
Now it looks as if you have just turned amata into "the Deathless."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

kirk5a wrote:Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
The last paragraph talks about freedom from the form and formless, presumably this means freedom from the 3 realms? In which case this seems to correlate with DO in cessation ( reverse ) mode, ie the cessation of becoming in the 3 realms leads to cessation of birth and therefore to cessation of death - or you could say freedom from becoming leads to freedom from birth and therefore freedom from death.

Spiny
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tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by tiltbillings »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
kirk5a wrote:Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
The last paragraph talks about freedom from the form and formless, presumably this means freedom from the 3 realms? In which case this seems to correlate with DO in cessation ( reverse ) mode, ie the cessation of becoming in the 3 realms leads to cessation of birth and therefore to cessation of death - or you could say freedom from becoming leads to freedom from birth and therefore freedom from death.

Spiny
Dinsdale would be proud of you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
squarepeg
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by squarepeg »

Im Sofa King We Tod Did
When one sees this with understanding
that is the path to suffering

:jumping:

Who's on first?

:focus:
"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"
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ground
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by ground »

"The deathless" qua term and translation may be a manifestation of fear of death.

Kind regards
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

TMingyur wrote:"The deathless" qua term and translation may be a manifestation of fear of death.

Kind regards
It's possible, but I still don't see the objection to a straightforward understanding based on the way DO is described in the suttas - when birth ceases, so does death.

Spiny
daverupa
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)

Post by daverupa »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:a straightforward understanding based on the way DO is described
"Do not say so, Ananda..."
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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