Not that I have read everything of Ven Thanissaro's, but of what I have read, this is, in my opinion, the best thing he has written, and it is quite clear.mikenz66 wrote:I thought the essay was reasonably clear:
"The Deathless" (amata)
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...
Mike
It's realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place: of here, or there, or between the two.
Mike
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Or the Buddha, as in the Bahiya Sutta:mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...It's realized only when the mind stops defining itself in terms of place: of here, or there, or between the two.
Mike
"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;Where there is no production of renewed becoming in the future, there is no future birth, aging, & death.
Amata.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Or, perhaps he actually knows what he is talking about.mikenz66 wrote:Perhaps he's plagiarizing Ven Nananda...
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:tiltbillings wrote:Or the Buddha, as in the Bahiya Sutta:
"When, Bahiya, for you in the seen is merely what is seen... in the cognized is merely what is cognized, then, Bahiya, you will not be 'with that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'with that,' then, Bahiya, you will not be 'in that.' When, Bahiya, you are not 'in that,' then, Bahiya, you will be neither here nor beyond nor in between the two. Just this is the end of suffering."
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Certainly does not change or challenge my point.kirk5a wrote: Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
"Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing" is probably amata, don't you think?tiltbillings wrote:Certainly does not change or challenge my point.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
- tiltbillings
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Now it looks as if you have just turned amata into "the Deathless."kirk5a wrote:"Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing" is probably amata, don't you think?tiltbillings wrote:Certainly does not change or challenge my point.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
- Spiny O'Norman
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- Location: Suffolk, England
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
The last paragraph talks about freedom from the form and formless, presumably this means freedom from the 3 realms? In which case this seems to correlate with DO in cessation ( reverse ) mode, ie the cessation of becoming in the 3 realms leads to cessation of birth and therefore to cessation of death - or you could say freedom from becoming leads to freedom from birth and therefore freedom from death.kirk5a wrote:Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
Spiny
- tiltbillings
- Posts: 23046
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Dinsdale would be proud of you.Spiny O'Norman wrote:The last paragraph talks about freedom from the form and formless, presumably this means freedom from the 3 realms? In which case this seems to correlate with DO in cessation ( reverse ) mode, ie the cessation of becoming in the 3 realms leads to cessation of birth and therefore to cessation of death - or you could say freedom from becoming leads to freedom from birth and therefore freedom from death.kirk5a wrote:Don't forget this part of the Bahiya sutta:
Where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing:
There the stars do not shine,
the sun is not visible,
the moon does not appear,
darkness is not found.
And when a sage,
a brahman through sagacity,
has known [this] for himself,
then from form & formless,
from bliss & pain,
he is freed.
Spiny
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
Im Sofa King We Tod Did
When one sees this with understanding
that is the path to suffering
Who's on first?
When one sees this with understanding
that is the path to suffering
Who's on first?
"Yadisam vapate bijam tadisam harate phalam" — as we sow, so shall we reap
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"
Maranam Bhavissati - "death will take place"
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
"The deathless" qua term and translation may be a manifestation of fear of death.
Kind regards
Kind regards
- Spiny O'Norman
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Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
It's possible, but I still don't see the objection to a straightforward understanding based on the way DO is described in the suttas - when birth ceases, so does death.TMingyur wrote:"The deathless" qua term and translation may be a manifestation of fear of death.
Kind regards
Spiny
Re: "The Deathless" (amata)
"Do not say so, Ananda..."Spiny O'Norman wrote:a straightforward understanding based on the way DO is described
- "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.
"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]