Bhikkhuni ordination...

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination...

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

Dhammanando wrote:It's an abridgement, not a mistranslation. The Pali passage that you quoted concerning bhikkhu disciples is then repeated by the Buddha, replacing 'bhikkhus' with 'bhikkhunīs', then with 'upāsakas', lastly with 'upāsikās'. Sister Vajirā has compressed these four paragraphs into one.
Ah! Thank for pointing that out. I should have read on a bit further. I had little time this morning before going for alms.
Dhammanando wrote:Right. All the suttas in which the earlier conversation is reported take place during the narrative leading up to the parinibbāna.
So the Bhikkhuṇī Sangha was already established.

Anyway, since the Buddha was Omniscient, he would have known that in his sāsana there would be a Bhikkhuṇī Sangha before there actually was.
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DNS
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination...

Post by DNS »

Here is an update on bhikkhuni ordination from Susan Pembroke, President of Alliance for bhikkhunis:

'In 2000, there were no bhikkhunis in Thailand. As of the spring of 2009, there are about 45 Thai samaneris and bhikkhunis. This may seem an insignificant number, but if you consider recent Sri Lankan bhikkhuni history, you will understand how quickly this nucleus of ordained women can mushroom. In the mid-1990s, there were no bhikkhunis in Sri Lanka. Once women began ordaining in the late 1990s, within 11 to 12 years, their numbers swelled to about 600 bhikkhunis. Given the caliber of women I encountered while touring Thai bhikkhuni monasteries in March 2009, I fully expect to see a flourishing Thai bhikkhuni Sangha within a decade or two. (See my “Letter from the President” in the spring edition of our online newsletter Present, http://www.bhikkhuni.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ) The newsletter also features an interview with Ajahn Brahm. An article on Theravada bhikkhuni ordination by Bhikkhu Bodhi has been added to our Library as well.'

:toast: :woohoo:
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Cittasanto
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination...

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There was a nun at the Forest Hermitage but she had to leave due to the Visa, and I believe she has settled nicely into a Forest Monastery of Ajahn Chah's now, hope she does well.
never actually talked to her but we did meet once or twice in passing.

on a note about the ordination, I know there will be reasons etc but why dont High Ranking Bhikkhus follow the rules for admitting women into the order untill there are enough well trained Bhikkhunis to do the job themselves, after all the first nuns were 'ordained' by a man?

not actually wanting or expecting an answer for that one just a thought!
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gavesako
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination...

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Interesting to see the number of places in Thailand where bhikkhunis can live now. Also the ordinations performed by senior monks in the North: I was told that they regard it as a matter of honour to restore the 4-fold assembly in the Sasana particularly in the Lanna region, which has different cultural and historical roots compared to central Thailand.

Practically speaking, it is not at all easy to actually develop a functioning Bhikkhuni Sangha: on the paper it looks easy, just give us some places to live and money to send the nuns to university, but on the human level it comes down to the personalities involved, and sometimes finding a harmonious way of living together is the biggest obstacle.
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination...

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Manapa wrote: on a note about the ordination, I know there will be reasons etc but why dont High Ranking Bhikkhus follow the rules for admitting women into the order untill there are enough well trained Bhikkhunis to do the job themselves, after all the first nuns were 'ordained' by a man?

not actually wanting or expecting an answer for that one just a thought!
Hi Manapa,

A bhikkhuni must first be ordained by a quorum of nuns and then by bhikkhus, thus, the controversy because it is not so much from the 'lack' of willing monks, but rather the lack of nuns (before reinstatement occurred).

But you are right, the first nuns, including Maha Pajapati Gotami and the 500 women with her who became nuns, had no quorum of nuns present.
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination...

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gavesako wrote:Interesting to see the number of places in Thailand where bhikkhunis can live now. Also the ordinations performed by senior monks in the North: I was told that they regard it as a matter of honour to restore the 4-fold assembly in the Sasana particularly in the Lanna region, which has different cultural and historical roots compared to central Thailand.

Practically speaking, it is not at all easy to actually develop a functioning Bhikkhuni Sangha: on the paper it looks easy, just give us some places to live and money to send the nuns to university, but on the human level it comes down to the personalities involved, and sometimes finding a harmonious way of living together is the biggest obstacle.
Hi Bhante Gavesako,

Glad to hear of the improvements.

What are the difficulties in living together harmoniously? Do you mean the monasteries where there are both bhikkhus and bhikkhunis present on the same grounds?
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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination...

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No, I mean the bhikkhunis themselves living on the same grounds...
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

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Re: Bhikkhuni ordination...

Post by Cittasanto »

Hi Dhamma,
I didn't know that monks were involved already in the ordination process at that level at least, thanks!


TheDhamma wrote:
Manapa wrote: on a note about the ordination, I know there will be reasons etc but why dont High Ranking Bhikkhus follow the rules for admitting women into the order untill there are enough well trained Bhikkhunis to do the job themselves, after all the first nuns were 'ordained' by a man?

not actually wanting or expecting an answer for that one just a thought!
Hi Manapa,

A bhikkhuni must first be ordained by a quorum of nuns and then by bhikkhus, thus, the controversy because it is not so much from the 'lack' of willing monks, but rather the lack of nuns (before reinstatement occurred).

But you are right, the first nuns, including Maha Pajapati Gotami and the 500 women with her who became nuns, had no quorum of nuns present.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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