the great rebirth debate

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
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cooran
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by cooran »

Ñāṇa said: This is one of the most important aspects of contemporary Theravāda Buddhism: That people can still ordain and devote their entire life to the three jewels, and know that they will be supported by the lay community and have their material needs of food, clothing, and shelter met.
Yes - if you are male.
There are a few places in the west for women to ordain ..... if you are under 50 years of age ..... which also have a long long waiting list.

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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Nyana
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Nyana »

cooran wrote:There are a few places in the west for women to ordain ..... if you are under 50 years of age ..... which also have a long long waiting list.
Yes, this situation can be improved, but there would be no ordained sangha without the support of the laity.
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

Alex123 wrote:Also I am very unconvinced when people ignore clear-as-clear-can-be phrases such as:
  • "with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in..."
The suttas are filled with such material that cannot simply be a metaphor.
I agree. I think agnosticism about rebirth is fine, what I struggle with is the attempts that some people make to write rebirth out of the suttas.

Spiny
daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

Ñāṇa wrote:In for a penny, in for a pound.
Supposing a Mahayana Buddhist said this...
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
rowyourboat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by rowyourboat »

:)

US homicide detective proves his past life

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PuayR6P-h_U" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Perhaps the Secularists came up with this ad campaign:

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ancientbuddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Also I am very unconvinced when people ignore clear-as-clear-can-be phrases such as:
  • "with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in..."
The suttas are filled with such material that cannot simply be a metaphor.
I agree. I think agnosticism about rebirth is fine, what I struggle with is the attempts that some people make to write rebirth out of the suttas.

Spiny
I wouldn't know what attempts there are to 'write rebirth out of the suttas', but Buddhadasa Bhikkhu did rewrite what rebirth means.

For some of us there is no 'view' about rebirth really, its just that the myth of rebirth doesn't inform practice.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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Nyana
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Nyana »

ancientbuddhism wrote:Perhaps the Secularists came up with this ad campaign
Sounds like a slogan for New Atheism....
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ancientbuddhism
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by ancientbuddhism »

Alex123 wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:
Alex123 wrote:We often see lying, backstabbing, aggressive shrewd and cunning psychopaths get to the top because they unfairly beat those who are not so aggressive and are push overs. Within the framework of one-life, they are on the top. But if we consider that there are multiple lifetimes we can consider that their victory is only for this short life and the bad kamma will catch up on them causing more trouble than it was worth.
Heaven for good people and hell for bad people? Do you really think the Dhamma is based on petty morality?

No, but I am realistic about defilements and motivations of people. When the going gets tough, one needs sufficient amount of reasons to follow Dhamma rather than something more pleasant in the short term. If there is only one life, then it is silly to cause oneself suffering and deprivation for the goal that would be achieved anyways at dying, before which one would be indulging in sensual pleasures before death - Parinibbana.

If there is rebirth than it makes full sense to follow Dhamma which may in this life lead to pain and sorrow to the point of tears only to stop much greater amount of sorrow and suffering if one didn't follow Dhamma.
There is evidence enough to be free from saṃsāra within the present continuum; the ‘faring on’ of mental recidivism. It is specious to make comparisons between the sociopath and ordinary decent people as though dukkha does not fall evenly on both.
I say, beware of all enterprises that require new clothes, and not rather a new wearer of clothes.” – Henry David Thoreau, Walden, 1854

Secure your own mask before assisting others. – NORTHWEST AIRLINES (Pre-Flight Instruction)

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rowboat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by rowboat »

I wouldn't know what attempts there are to 'write rebirth out of the suttas', but Buddhadasa Bhikkhu did rewrite what rebirth means.
It's my understanding that before he died Ven. Buddhadasa disavowed his early writings on rebirth.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Buckwheat
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Buckwheat »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
Alex123 wrote:Also I am very unconvinced when people ignore clear-as-clear-can-be phrases such as:
  • "with the break-up of the body, after death, have re-appeared in..."
The suttas are filled with such material that cannot simply be a metaphor.
I agree. I think agnosticism about rebirth is fine, what I struggle with is the attempts that some people make to write rebirth out of the suttas.

Spiny
Yes, the Buddha seems to have clearly taught rebirth. In order to dilute the dhamma enough to filter out the rebirth, you would be left with suttas that totally miss the mark. This does not mean that people have to believe rebirth, but they must recognize that discrediting rebirth is something that sets them apart from the Buddha's prescribed path. These are just my opinions.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
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Spiny O'Norman
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Spiny O'Norman »

ancientbuddhism wrote:For some of us there is no 'view' about rebirth really, its just that the myth of rebirth doesn't inform practice.
You say the "myth" of rebirth, so presumably you don't believe in rebirth? That sounds like a view to me.

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daverupa
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by daverupa »

Spiny O'Norman wrote:
ancientbuddhism wrote:For some of us there is no 'view' about rebirth really, its just that the myth of rebirth doesn't inform practice.
You say the "myth" of rebirth, so presumably you don't believe in rebirth? That sounds like a view to me.

Spiny
Funny thing about that:
AN 10.93 wrote: When this had been said, Anathapindika the householder said to the wanderers, "As for the venerable one who says, 'The cosmos is eternal. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless. This is the sort of view I have,' his view arises from his own inappropriate attention or in dependence on the words of another. Now this view has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated. Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. This venerable one thus adheres to that very stress, submits himself to that very stress." (Similarly for the other positions: "The cosmos is finite... The cosmos is infinite... The soul & the body are the same... The soul is one thing and the body another... After death a Tathagata exists... After death a Tathagata does not exist... After death a Tathagata both does & does not exist... After death a Tathagata neither does nor does not exist. Only this is true; anything otherwise is worthless.")

When this had been said, the wanderers said to Anathapindika the householder, "We have each & every one expounded to you in line with our own positions. Now tell us what views you have."

"Whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. This is the sort of view I have."

"So, householder, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. You thus adhere to that very stress, submit yourself to that very stress."

"Venerable sirs, whatever has been brought into being, is fabricated, willed, dependently originated, that is inconstant. Whatever is inconstant is stress. Whatever is stress is not me, is not what I am, is not my self. Having seen this well with right discernment as it actually is present, I also discern the higher escape from it as it actually is present."
(
Note, here, that he does NOT provide them with anything resembling the boilerplate "right view with effluents" as the corrective view. So, this view is not refuted the way other views are, but nor is it lauded when it would be most appropriate to do so. Whereupon:
[The Blessed One said:] "Well done, householder. Well done. That is how you should periodically refute those foolish men with the Dhamma."
)
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Alex123
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by Alex123 »

nowheat wrote: You didn't answer my question, Alex.
The usefulness of Dhamma without rebirth would be minimal for most. Ultimately Dhamma is to end rebirth and all dukkha that comes with it. If there is no rebirth then why follow it, especially if it brings more complications and restrictions?
nowheat wrote: This sounds to me as though you are saying the Buddha teaches that we should put ourselves first. Is that right?
Liberate yourself first, then help others. If you can't save even yourself, how can you save others?
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tiltbillings
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Re: the great rebirth debate

Post by tiltbillings »

Alex123 wrote: Liberate yourself first, then help others. If you can't save even yourself, how can you save others?
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 24&#p61124" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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