Micca Samadhi

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Micca Samadhi

Postby Shebop » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:03 pm

Hello all,
could you please help me to understand what is exactely meant by micca samadhi. Obviously it is a form of samadhi, so one will experience similar/same states as in sama-samadhi? Is the micca 'just' about one's intention and if - how can an unwholesome intention lead to a samadhi-state?
In my meditation yesterday something interessting happened, namely that an unwholesome wish popped up in my mind after a long period of silence. After thinking that wish, the meditation went much deeper instantly. My ability to hear stopped and after the meditation it took me a while to be able to move my body again. This state was no different from other meditation experiences I had and which were definately sama-samadhi.
The unwholesome wish and the minds response in yesterdays meditation puzzles me.

Does anyone know how the Buddha defines micca-samadhi? Does he give explanations?
Thankful for hints and help - Shebop
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:11 pm

Hi Shebop,

I can't give you a good reference right now, but my experience is that it is possible to get into a calm, concentrated, state, but with little mindfulness or energy, so no investigation. This essentially becomes just a kind of pleasant resting place.

Recognising such a state can be tricky, since it can be very pleasant.

:anjali:
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Shebop » Fri Mar 23, 2012 9:34 pm

Thanks Mike!
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby cooran » Fri Mar 23, 2012 11:56 pm

Hello Shebop, all,

This might be of interest miccha-samadhi (wrong concentration).

MN 117
Maha-cattarisaka Sutta: The Great Forty


I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying at Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. There he addressed the monks: "Monks!"

"Yes, lord," the monks replied.

The Blessed One said, "Monks, I will teach you noble right concentration with its supports and requisite conditions. Listen, and pay close attention. I will speak."

[...continued ................................]
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby David2 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 3:22 am

I think an example for micca samadhi can be the samadhi one is experiencing during playing a video game.
One can be very concentrated during it, can be very absorbed, but normally, he isn't aware of any of the 4 satipatthanas: body, feelings, mind and dhammas.
One can not develop sati without being aware of at least one satipatthana. Without sati, samadhi is micca samadhi.
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby upekha » Sat Mar 24, 2012 4:10 am

Ven. Nyanatiloka's Buddhist dictionary gives the definition of Micca Samadhi as


"Wrong Concentration ( Micca Samadhi) is concentration associated with all karmically unwholesome ( akusala) consciousness."

with metta

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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Zom » Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:22 am

As I see it - Wrong Samadhi means absorbtion or one-pointedness of the mind on unskilful objects. For example, when someone is fully absorbed by this or that sensual pleasure - he is in Wrong Samadhi.
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:15 am

Shebop wrote:Hello all,
could you please help me to understand what is exactely meant by micca samadhi. Obviously it is a form of samadhi, so one will experience similar/same states as in sama-samadhi? Is the micca 'just' about one's intention and if - how can an unwholesome intention lead to a samadhi-state?
In my meditation yesterday something interessting happened, namely that an unwholesome wish popped up in my mind after a long period of silence. After thinking that wish, the meditation went much deeper instantly. My ability to hear stopped and after the meditation it took me a while to be able to move my body again. This state was no different from other meditation experiences I had and which were definately sama-samadhi.
The unwholesome wish and the minds response in yesterdays meditation puzzles me.

Does anyone know how the Buddha defines micca-samadhi? Does he give explanations?
Thankful for hints and help - Shebop

Hi Shebop
Micca-samadhi, or as I like to think of it, dissident focus, can be characterised as dewlling in unskilled mental states without the application of Samma-vyama, upright effort, to overcome them.
Have a look at MN108, where the mind overcome by the hindrences are wrong absorption, jhana, the four Jhanas are the standard definition of Sammasamadhi. and samadhi isn't necesarily only Jhana, Samadhi has many nuanced meanings, depending on the context, The great 40, MN117, shows that the entire path supports Samma-samadhi, the fourth Jhana can attained while walking according to one sutta (there is a thread on this question of walking anf the fourth Jhana, and I think the sutta referenced their is in MN). essentially the great 40 is a teaching upon the development of Samadhi, up until it culminates in the Jhanas, but to say before this there is no focus, samadhi, before Jhana would not take into account what is happening, the samadhi group of the path (effort, mindfulness and concentration) or the gradual path, remember samma means complete, so the parts of the path as defined in the suttas are showing what these folds in there fully developed forms.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Zom » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:34 pm

the fourth Jhana can attained while walking according to one sutta


Impossible ,)
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Shebop » Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:49 pm

Thank you all for your answers! I will go through the mentioned sutas as well.
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Cittasanto » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:47 pm

Zom wrote:
the fourth Jhana can attained while walking according to one sutta


Impossible ,)

Then explain MN 122 Maha-suññata Sutta: The Greater Discourse on Emptiness.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Rui Sousa » Sun Mar 25, 2012 1:03 am

I think this passage may be helpfull:

MN 108
Gopaka Moggallana Sutta: Moggallana the Guardsman


It wasn't the case, brahman, that the Blessed One praised mental absorption of every sort, nor did he criticize mental absorption of every sort. And what sort of mental absorption did he not praise? There is the case where a certain person dwells with his awareness overcome by sensual passion, seized with sensual passion. He does not discern the escape, as it actually is present, from sensual passion once it has arisen. Making that sensual passion the focal point, he absorbs himself with it, besorbs, resorbs, & supersorbs himself with it.

"He dwells with his awareness overcome by ill will...

"He dwells with his awareness overcome by sloth & drowsiness...

"He dwells with his awareness overcome by restlessness & anxiety...

"He dwells with his awareness overcome by uncertainty, seized with uncertainty. He does not discern the escape, as it actually is present, from uncertainty once it has arisen. Making that uncertainty the focal point, he absorbs himself with it, besorbs, resorbs, & supersorbs himself with it. This is the sort of mental absorption that the Blessed One did not praise.


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.108.than.html
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Shebop » Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:31 pm

That answers my questions. Thanks a lot Rui Sousa!!!!!!
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Zom » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:30 pm

Then explain MN 122 Maha-suññata Sutta: The Greater Discourse on Emptiness.


What to explain there? I don't see it is said that someone does 4th jhana while walking.
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Cittasanto » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:45 pm

Zom wrote:
Then explain MN 122 Maha-suññata Sutta: The Greater Discourse on Emptiness.


What to explain there? I don't see it is said that someone does 4th jhana while walking.

The "imperturbable" usually denotes the four formless attainments. In this context, though, it means the fourth jhana and the first two formless attainments based on it: the dimension of the infinitude of space and the dimension of the infinitude of consciousness.

but this discussion can continue elsewhere, like the thread regarding it here
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Zom » Mon Mar 26, 2012 7:05 am

Perhaps you interpret this passage as "inside a jhana":

"If, while the monk is dwelling by means of this dwelling, his mind inclines to walking back & forth, he walks back & forth [thinking,] 'While I am walking thus, no covetousness or sadness, no evil, unskillful qualities will take possession of me.' In this way he is alert there.

But this is not the case. It is actually said here "while the monk is dwelling ("is living") [generally] by means of this dwelling..." and not "while in the jhana".
Easy to prove. Just look further.


"If, while he is dwelling by means of this dwelling, his mind inclines to speaking, he resolves that 'I will not engage in talk that is base, vulgar, common, ignoble, unbeneficial, that does not lead to disenchantment, dispassion, cessation, calm, direct knowledge, self-awakening, or Unbinding — i.e., talk about kings, robbers, & ministers of state; armies, alarms, & battles; food & drink; clothing, furniture, garlands, & scents; relatives; vehicles; villages, towns, cities, the countryside; women & heroes; the gossip of the street & the well; tales of the dead; tales of diversity, the creation of the world & of the sea; talk of whether things exist or not.' In this way he is alert there. "'But,' [he resolves,] 'I will engage in talk that is scrupulous, conducive to release of awareness,


Elsewhere in other suttas it is said that even in the 1st jhana all thinking (internal speech) completely stops. Not to say about 4th jhana. Even if we don't interpret internal speech as thinking, then this is surely so in the 2nd jhana, where there is no vitakka/vicara at all. So, in the 4th jhana there can be no thoughts and no speech. But one not knowing this, taking as a support this passage from MN 122, may think that in the 4th jhana there is still speech and thinking; and that it can be done while walking -)

but this discussion can continue elsewhere, like the thread regarding it here


Here is okey too, because 4th jhana while walking is also a wrong samadhi -)
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Re: Micca Samadhi

Postby Cittasanto » Mon Mar 26, 2012 4:07 pm

Zom wrote:Perhaps you interpret this passage as "inside a jhana":

"If, while the monk is dwelling by means of this dwelling, his mind inclines to walking back & forth, he walks back & forth [thinking,] 'While I am walking thus, no covetousness or sadness, no evil, unskillful qualities will take possession of me.' In this way he is alert there.
But this is not the case. It is actually said here "while the monk is dwelling ("is living") [generally] by means of this dwelling..." and not "while in the jhana".
Easy to prove. Just look further.

yes it is speaking in a general manner about the state they are in, after all the four Jhanas are in the Noble One's discipline called abidings in ease here and now, and vihara, the word translated here as dwelling, could refer to several things, postures, or activities included.
the strength of concentration needed is debatable, all that can be said for certain is the Jhana factors need to be present and it maybe more the case that the Buddha encouraged these Jhana qualities in every posture and activity also and used the same names, this being one direct reference to this that has survived, but that is just a guess.
Although I see no difference between your rendering and what the sutta is saying.

Elsewhere in other suttas it is said that even in the 1st jhana all thinking (internal speech) completely stops. Not to say about 4th jhana. Even if we don't interpret internal speech as thinking, then this is surely so in the 2nd jhana, where there is no vitakka/vicara at all. So, in the 4th jhana there can be no thoughts and no speech. But one not knowing this, taking as a support this passage from MN 122, may think that in the 4th jhana there is still speech and thinking; and that it can be done while walking -)

yet the suttas are clear that initial and sustained thought are part of the first Jhana and that discernment and knowing are or can be present in the Jhanas!

Here is okey too, because 4th jhana while walking is also a wrong samadhi -)

how is it wrong samadhi?
did the Buddha not praise meditation, and recommend walking meditation, one of its benefits is that concentration lasts a long time?
and as it is found within the texts, regardless what anyone thinks of it, a difference in interpretation does not equate it being Micca Samadhi.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
With Metta
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Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."
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