path of renunciation ?

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path of renunciation ?

Postby syrius » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:48 am

Hi I just came to the realization that I am full of craving, desires ... this realization has shaken me quite a lot , as i have seen how ignorant i am and how much sufferring i bring myself by constant cravings for various things... .

my question is how someone can embark on the path of renunciation ?

thank you
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby Dan74 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:59 am

By letting go of the ones that are most unwholesome, the ones causing yourself and others the most suffering.
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby syrius » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:10 am

thanks so if i understandood rightly i have to give up greed, lust , grasping . as I see them to bring only dissastifaction.

My biggest block it is all the attachment that i Have formed and how to let go of that attachment, especially what i call materialism. As many see success in term of how much one get . Intellectually I have understood this but it is the emotional content surrounding attachment that I found hard to let go .
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby Dan74 » Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:44 am

That's it! Intellectual understanding alone is not going to cut it. But when we learn to diligently observe how these "attachments" work in our lives, understand their effect, see for ourselves how they arise and allow them to pass without acting on them, then we can let them go. The trick, as far as I can tell, is to want to do this and to cultivate the skills necessary for the task.
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby Sarva » Sat Mar 24, 2012 12:02 pm

Hi Syrius
You could try to be mindful of when the thoughts arise then replace them actively with more skillful thoughts. It is interesting how our mind can be redirected to skillful thoughts and hence stopping our unskillful patterns of thought in their tracks.

Here is a quote from this document, in my opinion you could substitute 'greed' below for most unskillful/negative thoughts: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... toend.html

"Greed and aversion surface in the form of thoughts, and thus can be eroded by a process of "thought substitution," by replacing them with the thoughts opposed to them."

I have found that it takes a bit of energy and effort at the start and it may feel that we should let the thoughts and feelings act out to their end as if they have a right to be expressed or others would expect us to do so. However this is a`wrong view' to be on guard against. We need to deprogram ourselves from the self-image that we are greedy people etc, as there is no real self (anatta) who owns these thoughts, they are habits or patterns imo. The intial effort of 'thought substituion' is the start on the path to self-mastery and greater happiness. In time it will be possible to stop the thoughts as easily as switching off a light and with it further benefits will naturally arise.

Metta
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby syrius » Sat Mar 24, 2012 1:04 pm

thank you all for your very useful input .

I know now that i am on the right path . :anjali:
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby robertk » Sat Mar 24, 2012 2:02 pm

That is why even a sotapanna still has strong lobha , dosa and moha, and they arise often.
The sotapanna though has given up the type of lobha assocaited with wrong view.
They know that there is no self, that realties are utterly uncontrollable and fully conditioned , never random.
They do not cling to any wrong practice like trying to focus on some reality, mistaking that for satipatthana.
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby syrius » Sat Mar 24, 2012 6:27 pm

thank you so i am starting to to understand it a bit more ... am I right to think that the "I" manifest itself through lobha , dosa and moha ?
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby Sarva » Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:10 pm

syrius wrote:thank you so i am starting to to understand it a bit more ... am I right to think that the "I" manifest itself through lobha , dosa and moha ?

Hi Syrius
It is a good question. Here is a quote which may help:

"He who has not penetrated the ego-illusion and is still attached to self-vanity will believe that it is he himself that suffers, will believe that is he himself that performs the good and evil deeds leading to his rebirth, that it is he himself that will enter Nirvana, that is he himself that will bring the eightfold path to perfection."
Link http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... golessness

So whilst a sense of "I am angry/happy" exists then there is a reinforcement that the feelings are "mine" and I am the doer or actor. Buddha teaches that there is no real "I" entity, no phenomena which we can point to and say "that is me, I am that". It is because we believe that there is a self that leads us to suffer through the impermance. All phenomena are impermenant, so when things change, including our Self, we undergo suffering. To be free from the suffering we need to investigate and confirm for ourself that there is no "I" or "ego", rather there are actions and reaction (karma).

In my opinon ego or "I" is not the enemy and cannot be destoryed, simply because it does not exist. It is thought to exist but through investigation and mediation we may confirm for ourselves that there is no permanent "I".

So the short answer is that there is never a manifestation of "I" there is just the wrong view that there is an "I" which appears to be manifest through form (body) etc due to ignorance.

Metta.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby syrius » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:07 pm

so lobha, dosa and moha reinforce the illusion that there is a self whereas actually there is nothing , just impermanence.
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby Sarva » Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:23 pm

syrius wrote:so lobha, dosa and moha reinforce the illusion that there is a self whereas actually there is nothing , just impermanence.

In my eyes lobha, dosa and moha have no force or power in themselves which can increase the illusion. The ego-illusion can exist just as well in positive behaviour, for example "I help people". There is still the concept (or illusion) that there is a static, unchanging "I" which acts and recieves the consequences of any action. In reality everything is changing and hence impermanent. So although there is a sensation of "I", with further investigation it may turn out that there is no seperate "I", really there is just movement, be it lobha, dosa or any other phenomena.

The reason we are told to watch lobha, dosa and moha, in my opinion, is so that we can reduce and eliminate them from our mind. The reason being is that the less negativity, regret and worry there is in our mind then the more our mind will free us from ignorance and lead us to nibbana through the jhanas (states of meditation).

Metta.
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby santa100 » Sun Mar 25, 2012 3:01 am

Syrius wrote:
"My biggest block it is all the attachment that i Have formed and how to let go of that attachment, especially what i call materialism. As many see success in term of how much one get . Intellectually I have understood this but it is the emotional content surrounding attachment that I found hard to let go"

Some specific tactics the Buddha recommended when our mind is getting out of control: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby Goofaholix » Sun Mar 25, 2012 7:53 am

syrius wrote:my question is how someone can embark on the path of renunciation ?


Even if you don't want to be a monk spending a decent amount of time in monasteries or retreat centres is a good start, or even better get a backpack and travel around SE Asia as a Dhamma bum.

I think it's pretty hard to get the ball rolling when you're surrounded by your familiar attachments, willpower will work to a certain extent but you'll falter at times.
"Proper effort is not the effort to make something particular happen. It is the effort to be aware and awake each moment." - Ajahn Chah
"When we see beyond self, we no longer cling to happiness. When we stop clinging, we can begin to be happy." - Ajahn Chah
"Know and watch your heart. It’s pure but emotions come to colour it." — Ajahn Chah
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Re: path of renunciation ?

Postby befriend » Sun Mar 25, 2012 9:44 am

renunciation is a gradual training. i dont watch tv, listen to music except once in a blue moon, and am hardly sexual. this happens when you train the mind, and also, when you experience even the transience of higher happinesses, like that of charity, yes it makes the mind happy, but even that is temporary. so my mind turned elsewhere to compassion. use clear comprehension and think does listening to an hour of music because im bored fit in with my aims in life, or will 30 or so minutes of meditation or helping around the house be more beneficial. you can ask does this action increase greed, hatred, and delusion? will this action be of benefit for myself and others? in terms of actually renouncing, try not to think maybe i want it maybe i dont, just let the craving arise then let it pass, the middle path is renunciation.if you stop all your pleasures cold turkey it may back fire, and then you pig out on all kinds of sense pleasures and cause the mind too much suffering. so see what feels like the right amount of renunciation for you, push yourself some, but dont push yourself too hard or it will backfire. if ive said anything wrong please correct me anyone.
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