10-day goenka retreat

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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Slow Learner
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by Slow Learner »

Brizzy wrote: one wonders why with such assurance they are so silent with regards to how some of their teachings stack up against the suttas (the actual teachings of the Buddha)
There's a very good article discussing the teachings of this tradition in relation to traditional theravada teachings found in the sutta. Here's a thread where it was discussed earlier, with a link to the article:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=8741" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

best wishes,

Tim
SamKR
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by SamKR »

vidar wrote:
Brizzy wrote: one wonders why with such assurance they are so silent with regards to how some of their teachings stack up against the suttas (the actual teachings of the Buddha)
I don't think that the teachings of S.N. Goenka "stack up" against the suttas, maybe these teachings stack up against your particular interpretation of the suttas which is different.
:goodpost:

This is true in case of disputes about other traditions too. I think if we understand this thing, more than 90% of our tendency to attack (traditions other than one's own) will vanish, and that will give us some peace of mind too.
amrad
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by amrad »

I did a ten day course in Feb, but my experience was the exact opposite of the op.
I hadnt meditated in years so the long hours of sitting were very painful, one simply perseveres. The food was very good, the servers caring and all of us, and most were new to retreats and a lot new to meditation, had a positive experience. I even started to like Goenkas chanting, well like may be too strong a word, but the guy just exudes love so how can anyone find fault with him?
To be honest Iv experienced a lot more asceticism at my own hands than what I experienced at the center. Try raising three kids, working ten hours a day and renovating a house at the same time and you will know what real sleep deprivation and worry is. :smile:
I did have reservations about the method of Vipassana, in fact I still do, but I promised to give the method a three month trial. Ill decide at that time whether to stay with it or not.
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Ferox
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by Ferox »

I have no view on this other then a possibly very ignorant one.. but my suspicious alarm rings just for the fact that the retreats and tradition are named after the guy and I hear talk about him and his students rather then the Dhamma... I'll stick with monastics and monasteries for myself personally, but I cannot judge anyone elses experiences or benefit from Goenka.
-just one more being treading the ancient path of Dhamma-
David2
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by David2 »

Ferox wrote:but my suspicious alarm rings just for the fact that the retreats and tradition are named after the guy
Well, Goenka himself does not call the retreats "Goenka retreats", nor does the website or any assistant teacher.

Students who go to the retreats tell afterwards "I was on a Goenka retreat.", just to express the kind of retreat they were on.
But that applies to most traditions.
Students do also tell "I was on a Mahasi retreat", "I was on an Ajahn Brahm retreat" etc.
I can't find anything wrong with that.
and I hear talk about him and his students rather then the Dhamma...
Well, most of them are talking about the Dhamma... but this thread is about a goenka retreat, so of course something is said about him and the students. :juggling:
delf7
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by delf7 »

Brizzy wrote:The Buddha rejected forms of meditation that led to an unstable & tortured body (even if mindfulness was produced by that meditation). Couple this with a view of 'eradicating sankharas' which entails a 'reward' for the pain one sits through and a 'reward' for the joy one neglects.
well said! very well said!
Buckwheat
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by Buckwheat »

:redherring: There is a difference between the ascetic seeking out painful, tortuous practices and sitting through pain. Seeking pain is indulgence in pain, thinking the pain will bring about spiritual progress. Sitting through pain is transcending the pain to focus on what is really important: what is suffering... cause... cessation... path...

I have never been to a Goenka retreat, but I see nothing to suggest the method involves indulgence in pain.

As for the "hypnotic" criticism, I have noticed that many Buddhist practices do seem geared toward a type of "brainwashing" by getting the person into a calm place of trust and then planting the dhamma deep inside a person's consciousness. However, this is not an evil thing. Our suffering comes from a deep seated ignorance and clinging, and the only way to eliminate suffering is to dig deep and replace greed, hate, and delusion with virtue, concentration, and wisdom. What is wrong with that? Why else sign up for a 10 day retreat? Of course, before and after the retreat, I think it's important to reflect on how such training affects a person, and to decide to move forward or try another practice.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.
amrad
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by amrad »

I think a lot of the op's complaints come from the all to worldly practice of blaming others for our own failures. It would be interesting Breeze if your opinions would be the same if you would have buckled down to work and persevered to the end of the course.
delf7
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by delf7 »

amrad wrote:I think a lot of the op's complaints come from the all to worldly practice of blaming others for our own failures.
i wouldn't call leaving the retreat a "failure".
i think your reply comes from the all-too-worldly practice of thinking you know more about a situation than you actually do.
were you at the retreat in question?
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tiltbillings
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

delf7 wrote:
Brizzy wrote:The Buddha rejected forms of meditation that led to an unstable & tortured body (even if mindfulness was produced by that meditation). Couple this with a view of 'eradicating sankharas' which entails a 'reward' for the pain one sits through and a 'reward' for the joy one neglects.
well said! very well said!
What is well said? About what?
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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tiltbillings
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

delf7 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
delf7 wrote:. . .
You left after 5 days of a 10 day course, and you are blaming everyone but yourself, even though you claim you got some good out of the course. The problem may not be what you are saying but with what you are not saying. It happens. At least you want to entertain that possibility.
i'm not "blaming" anyone for anything. there is nothing to put any blame on. i have no hard feelings toward the retreat, those who run it or those who support it. nor do i regret attending. i also do not regret leaving when i did. sometimes you gotta go with your gut, and my gut told me "something ain't right with this place" so i bolted. or maybe, as i think tilt is suggesting, "i wasn't right for that place."
Sometimes you "gotta go with your gut." Maybe, but sometimes your "gut" is not a reliable source of information of what is actually going on around oneself and in one's self, and sometimes what one sees in one's surroundings is a reflection of one's own fears and anxieties. That is possible.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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DNS
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by DNS »

Brizzy wrote:The Buddha rejected forms of meditation that led to an unstable & tortured body (even if mindfulness was produced by that meditation). Couple this with a view of 'eradicating sankharas' which entails a 'reward' for the pain one sits through and a 'reward' for the joy one neglects.
I have not been on a Goenka retreat yet, so have not commented on this topic yet. But from what I have seen from others who have been, the teachings of Goenka-ji, the books he has written or were written by his students, and his videos; there is not any asceticism in that practice. Meditating for long hours is not asceticism and quite normal during a retreat.

But in any event, the Buddha did not reject all forms of asceticism. Monks and nuns are expected to eat their meals before noon and this can be done in two meals from dawn to noon or in the more advanced, slightly ascetic practice of One meal per day.

"I do not say householder, that all asceticism should be practiced; nor do I say of all asceticism that it should not be practiced" (Anguttara Nikaya 10.94).

13 ascetic type practices conducive for jhana attainments are listed at Therigatha 16.7
delf7
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by delf7 »

if i found myself in the middle of a highway and there was a truck speeding toward me, my "gut" would tell me to get out of the way. so... should i get out of the way, or should i stand there and question if my "gut" is a reliable source of information? maybe that truck is only a reflection of my own fears & anxieties. anything is possible.

i guess what i'm not understanding about this whole discussion is why the pro-goenka faction here at dhammawheel cannot simply accept that his methods are not right for everybody and why the goenkaists say that those who do not buy into these retreats have somehow "failed". what is good for the goose is not always good for the gander. there are many teachers and many methods, correct? this rabid defense of goenka reminds me of the "born-again christian" mentality that there is only "one way" - that "my way or the highway" mentality which i think, if i'm understanding my reading correctly, goes against what the buddha taught.
David2
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by David2 »

delf7 wrote:if i found myself in the middle of a highway and there was a truck speeding toward me, my "gut" would tell me to get out of the way. so... should i get out of the way, or should i stand there and question if my "gut" is a reliable source of information? maybe that truck is only a reflection of my own fears & anxieties. anything is possible.
Obviously, your life is not in danger if you stay until the end of a retreat... (at least not more than in every day life), so I don't understand this comparison. :shrug:
delf7
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by delf7 »

David2 wrote:
delf7 wrote:if i found myself in the middle of a highway and there was a truck speeding toward me, my "gut" would tell me to get out of the way. so... should i get out of the way, or should i stand there and question if my "gut" is a reliable source of information? maybe that truck is only a reflection of my own fears & anxieties. anything is possible.
I don't understand this comparison. :shrug:
obviously.

it was in response to tiltbillings post. i failed to "quote" his post.
Last edited by delf7 on Wed Mar 28, 2012 3:31 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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