10-day goenka retreat

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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tiltbillings
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

delf7 wrote:if i found myself in the middle of a highway and there was a truck speeding toward me, my "gut" would tell me to get out of the way. so... should i get out of the way, or should i stand there and question if my "gut" is a reliable source of information? maybe that truck is only a reflection of my own fears & anxieties. anything is possible.
One of the things the "gut" wants to do is preserve its "self." And one of the things the "gut" will do, to do that, is project onto its environment its fears, where faces look threatening or overly grim, etc.. Also, there is a significant difference between standing in the middle of a highway and being in a retreat that is uncomfortable.
i guess what i'm not understanding about this whole discussion is why the pro-goenka faction here at dhammawheel cannot simply accept that his methods are not right for everybody
They are not right for everyone, period. But what is interesting is that you, in your negative response to the Goenka retreat, referred us to an anti-Goenka blog of rather dubious character that holds that the type of practice is simply wrong. Also, there is at least one anti-Goenka-ist here who has been arguing that point. So, my point is, you may want to go back and look at how you came across in your initial post-retreat posting.
this rabid defense of goenka reminds me of the "born-again christian" mentality that there is only "one way" - that "my way or the highway" mentality which i think, if i'm understanding my reading correctly, goes against what the buddha taught.
Again, you might want to look at how you came across in your post-retreat posting here.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
delf7
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by delf7 »

tiltbillings wrote:
delf7 wrote:if i found myself in the middle of a highway and there was a truck speeding toward me, my "gut" would tell me to get out of the way. so... should i get out of the way, or should i stand there and question if my "gut" is a reliable source of information? maybe that truck is only a reflection of my own fears & anxieties. anything is possible.
One of the things the "gut" wants to do is preserve its "self." And one of the things the "gut" will do, to do that, is project onto its environment its fears, where faces look threatening or overly grim, etc.. Also, there is a significant difference between standing in the middle of a highway and being in a retreat that is uncomfortable.
i guess what i'm not understanding about this whole discussion is why the pro-goenka faction here at dhammawheel cannot simply accept that his methods are not right for everybody
They are not right for everyone, period. But what is interesting is that you, in your negative response to the Goenka retreat, referred us to an anti-Goenka blog of rather dubious character that holds that the type of practice is simply wrong. Also, there is at least one anti-Goenka-ist here who has been arguing that point. So, my point is, you may want to go back and look at how you came across in your initial post-retreat posting.
this rabid defense of goenka reminds me of the "born-again christian" mentality that there is only "one way" - that "my way or the highway" mentality which i think, if i'm understanding my reading correctly, goes against what the buddha taught.
Again, you might want to look at how you came across in your post-retreat posting here.
1. the retreat was more than just "uncomfortable" - i found it to be potentially dangerous.

2. i refered to the blog in question because i thought it was a balanced, fair and well-written critique and not just some angry rant. but i do understand your point.

3. i never said those who support goenka were "wrong". i said it was wrong for ME. i believe i said something to the effect of "to each his own" on several occasions.

can't we just agree to disagree on this?
peace.
delf
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tiltbillings
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

delf7 wrote: 1. the retreat was more than just "uncomfortable" - i found it to be potentially dangerous.
Is it potentially dangerous for everyone or just you? And what exactly is the danger? Certainly dangerous to one's "self."
2. i reffered to the blog in question because i thought it was a balanced, fair and well-written critique and not just some angry rant.
Well, balanced? Probably not so much.
3. i never said those who support goenka were "wrong". i said it was wrong for ME. i believe i said something to the effect of "to each his own" on several occasions.
Well, then the danger is fairly limited to your perceptions and the internal circumstances in which you found yourself.
can't we just agree to disagree on this?
Okay.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
amrad
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by amrad »

The course schedule is made available in detail on line and you are asked if you have read and understood it when you apply. Once more when you go to register at the site you are asked if you understand the rules and you are urged to stay for the full ten days. The length of the course is also everywhere on their site, also the urging to stay for the full ten days is mentioned over and over again.
Now im not familiar with the particular site that Breeze went to,and it may be different. But my impression was that all courses run the same the world over.
Im low income as were most of those i met at the course. Most of us live in rural areas not cities, we have no access to Dhamma teachers or Theravada temples, and none of us could afford to pay for a retreat, regardless of methods taught.
Please keep in mind that many of us would never have had the opportunity to do a retreat if not for Goenka. That dosnt make us Goenkanites, it just makes us very thankfull.
delf7
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by delf7 »

tiltbillings wrote:
delf7 wrote: 1. the retreat was more than just "uncomfortable" - i found it to be potentially dangerous.
Is it potentially dangerous for everyone or just you? And what exactly is the danger? Certainly dangerous to one's "self."
2. i reffered to the blog in question because i thought it was a balanced, fair and well-written critique and not just some angry rant.
Well, balanced? Probably not so much.
3. i never said those who support goenka were "wrong". i said it was wrong for ME. i believe i said something to the effect of "to each his own" on several occasions.
Well, then the danger is fairly limited to your perceptions and the internal circumstances in which you found yourself.
can't we just agree to disagree on this?
Okay.
1. i think the potential for danger is there for others, but for the sake of argument, we'll just say "just me".
2. we disagree.
3. correct, to a point. i do remain concerned about the negative effects of goenka's "technique" may have on others.
4. cool.
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tiltbillings
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

delf7 wrote: 1. i think the potential for danger is there for others, but for the sake of argument, we'll just say "just me".
You are generalizing from a partial experience of a retreat that did not meet your expectations. The fair number of people I know who have done one or more Goenka retreats found them difficult, but certainly not dangerous. Also, the most difficult things I have been told about were those things projected outwards. In other words, dealing with the resistance of their own minds. It is easier to assume that a devil is outside one's self rather than take responsibility for for the stuff inside one's self.
2. we disagree.
We certainly do.
3. correct, to a point. i do remain concerned about the negative effects of goenka's "technique" may have on others.
You are hardly in a position to talk about these style of retreat from a basis of experience. You have had next to none.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
delf7
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by delf7 »

amrad wrote:The course schedule is made available in detail on line and you are asked if you have read and understood it when you apply. Once more when you go to register at the site you are asked if you understand the rules and you are urged to stay for the full ten days. The length of the course is also everywhere on their site, also the urging to stay for the full ten days is mentioned over and over again.
Now im not familiar with the particular site that Breeze went to,and it may be different. But my impression was that all courses run the same the world over.
Im low income as were most of those i met at the course. Most of us live in rural areas not cities, we have no access to Dhamma teachers or Theravada temples, and none of us could afford to pay for a retreat, regardless of methods taught.
Please keep in mind that many of us would never have had the opportunity to do a retreat if not for Goenka. That dosnt make us Goenkanites, it just makes us very thankfull.
looks like you & i are of the same situation. i am not wealthy & i too live in a rural area with no access to buddhist teaching.
and, believe it or not, i'm thankful for the opportunity to attend. even tho i found it not to my likeing, it was beneficial to me in that the experience taught me to look elsewhere to find my way.
however.... regarding your statements about the wealth of information they give you before attending the retreat... they do prepare you in advance, but only as well as they want to, but there is ALOT they don't tell you as well. that is what concerns me.
delf7
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by delf7 »

tiltbillings wrote:
delf7 wrote: 1. i think the potential for danger is there for others, but for the sake of argument, we'll just say "just me".
You are generalizing from a partial experience of a retreat that did not meet your expectations. The fair number of people I know who have done one or more Goenka retreats found them difficult, but certainly not dangerous. Also, the most difficult things I have been told about were those things projected outwards. In other words, dealing with the resistance of their own minds. It is easier to assume that a devil is outside one's self rather than take responsibility for for the stuff inside one's self.
2. we disagree.
We certainly do.
3. correct, to a point. i do remain concerned about the negative effects of goenka's "technique" may have on others.
You are hardly in a position to talk about these style of retreat from a basis of experience. You have had next to none.
1. o.k., whatever.
2. i'm getting the impression that "disagreeing" is something you really like to do.
3. i've only been shot in the leg once too, but i think once is enough to be qualified to have the opinion that getting shot in the leg might not be for everyone.

what happened to item 4 ?
Last edited by delf7 on Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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tiltbillings
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

delf7 wrote:what happened to item 4 ?
Nothing.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
delf7
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by delf7 »

tiltbillings wrote:
delf7 wrote:what happened to item 4 ?
Nothing.
now, this is just getting silly.
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tiltbillings
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

delf7 wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
delf7 wrote:what happened to item 4 ?
Nothing.
now, this is just getting silly.
You are the one that brought it up.

Item #4:
4. cool.
Gnarly, man.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
delf7
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by delf7 »

is anyone else getting tired of this thread, or is it just me?
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tiltbillings
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

delf7 wrote:is anyone else getting tired of this thread, or is it just me?
If you are tired of this thread, then don't post in it.

As for item #4, you wanted to agree to disagree, which is fine, but then you kept on posting stuff. If you do not want comments to your postings, then the best thing is: don't post anything and you'll not get comments.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by mikenz66 »

I'm hardly a "goenakaist". I've only done one retreat, and I prefer the Mahasi-style approach that my local teachers use. The method itself is a bit too rigid for my taste.

However, I don't see anything about the structure of a Goenka retreat that is at significant variance with other strict retreats. No talking, no reading, get up, practice, eat, practice, sleep. Difficult stuff, but very standard.

Personally, I'm pleased I did some less strict, shorter, retreats before the Goenka retreat. I actually felt very relieved on the Goenka retreat that the silence was kept strictly by the servers.

The point is, any intensive retreat will bring up a lot of difficulties. New meditators might consider starting with some shorter and/or less demanding retreats.

:anjali:
Mike
delf7
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Re: 10-day goenka retreat

Post by delf7 »

tiltbillings wrote:
delf7 wrote:is anyone else getting tired of this thread, or is it just me?
If you are tired of this thread, then don't post in it.

As for item #4, you wanted to agree to disagree, which is fine, but then you kept on posting stuff. If you do not want comments to your postings, then the best thing is: don't post anything and you'll not get comments.
o.k., i'm pretty new to this forum, so excuse me for asking, but are you always this smug & childish?
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