The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Reductor
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by Reductor »

Tonight went well enough at the beginning and the end. The middle part could have been better. :tongue: I should be getting more sleep at night I suppose.

:thinking:
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Ben
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by Ben »

Hi thereductor,
Better...how?
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Reductor
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by Reductor »

Ben wrote:Hi thereductor,
Better...how?
kind regards,

Ben
In the beginning my mind calmed down easily, but didn't become drowsy. The various preoccupations with world "as a location", and the concerns of the world "as beings and their activities", faded away, and the sense of body and mind were clear and calm.

After a fairly short time of that, my mind began to scatter again - intentions that had formed during the day came to mind, and I had to return to counting my breath a lot. More interesting was that I could see places I've been lately, and which have been on my mind, and people, and at times see from their perspective (actually this happens fairly often). There was a temptation to interpret these things as some kind of iddhis, but that would be silly I think. I was very aware that all these things are closely linked to my rather intense and drawn out struggle with defilements during this last week (longer actually, but this last week has been intense for me).

Once that I had enough I got up and did walking meditation but still had trouble staying on task. Then I broke my steps into two parts: lift and swing, "Bud-", and placement "-dho". Back and forth across my apartment like that, and my mind finally calmed down. When my timer finally went off, I felt composed.

So, that's an outline of tonight. Hopefully not to much information.
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Ben
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by Ben »

Thanks.
Not too much info at all.
The reason I ask is that, particularly within my own tradition, I've noticed that some people place a lot of value on the affective "feel" of meditation and other artefacts such as distractedness, presence of lustful thoughts, drowsiness, painful and pleasurable sensations & etc as indicative of how "good" or "successful" their meditative experience is.
Personally, I think its a mistake.
A lot of the difficulties we experience in meditation (hindrances) manifest as a result of attempting to meditate. They are, to a small extent, indicative of some progress. However, if we end up indulging in our hindrances during meditation then it becomes a barrier.
Sometimes we're going to have meditation sessions that will feel great and others that will feel...ordinary. Just don't place to much value or attempt to interpret the session through the phenomenology that is rising and falling.
They're (meditation sessions) are all good!
I hope I made sense!
with metta,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
jcprice
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by jcprice »

Hi all,

very inspirational thread.

It was interesting to read the waxing and waning and waxing again of the practice. The disruptions of family life. Struggle with posture. Struggle with noise. Busy minds. etc.

It mirrors my own experience. :rofl:

I've been struggling this year to re-establish my own meditation practice after the birth of my second child.

Now it's just a matter of juggling meditation times between late nights settling the eldest child and the wife, and the youngest waking up early as I'm sitting down to meditate.

All that said, I've settled on my old practice of counting ("training wheels" as someone rather astutely pointed out above) and perhaps rolling into metta from there (especially in the evenings).

From past experience, it takes me about three months of daily practice to get to a good place with my meditation.

That said, I can feel the energy and enthusiasm coming up for each sit.

The real trick is to not drop the practice when the first disruption comes up (getting sick, travel, etc.).

Anyway, Metta to all with their own practice.

Jason
Reductor
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by Reductor »

Hey Ben.
Ben wrote:Thanks.
Not too much info at all.
The reason I ask is that, particularly within my own tradition, I've noticed that some people place a lot of value on the affective "feel" of meditation and other artefacts such as distractedness, presence of lustful thoughts, drowsiness, painful and pleasurable sensations & etc as indicative of how "good" or "successful" their meditative experience is.
Personally, I think its a mistake.
In the past I was very bad for assigning each meditation a rating of "good" or "bad" dependant upon my attachment or aversion to these affective feelings. It has been my intent to not take such an approach this time around. However, I continue to use the labels "good" and "bad" in terms what is, and is not, effective in making my mind mindful and steady for reflection.

A lot of the difficulties we experience in meditation (hindrances) manifest as a result of attempting to meditate. They are, to a small extent, indicative of some progress. However, if we end up indulging in our hindrances during meditation then it becomes a barrier.
There have been many times in the past when I had enjoyable meditations, and then fancied that I had turned a corner and could expect that all my future sessions would be like that. Obvious clinging, but I was taken in by it many times. Needless to say, that expectation only served to amplified the inevitable difficulties I would experienced in practice. These expectations of what meditation will be or should be ignored the complexity of how life and mind are conditioned. There is no flipping of a switch to make things happen, there is only conditioning to make things happen. And with such complex conditioning, there is uncertainty regarding what will happen. Keeping this complexity in mind helps me adjust my approach, and observe the outcome, with enough detachment that I don't become to upset with difficulties.(keeping this fact in mind is harder off the cushion, actually - which allows me to get into trouble in life generally :tongue: )
Sometimes we're going to have meditation sessions that will feel great and others that will feel...ordinary. Just don't place to much value or attempt to interpret the session through the phenomenology that is rising and falling.
Ordinary is (mostly) fine, now. I do not feel as obsessed with unique and wonderful experiences in my practice. Just cooling is my goal, and it is a long term one rather than a sense that I must be free RIGHT NOW! :tongue:

And over interpreting my meditation does not help me in that, so I have been avoiding every classification of my meditation experience except those in accordance with satipatthana.

They're (meditation sessions) are all good!
I hope I made sense!
You are absolutely right. In fact, this has been my credo since beginning this challenge: "meditation is good, however it unfolds". If it was not, then I would have quit already; this meditation stuff is hard work, after all. Haha.

Thanks for the feedback, Ben. It is always appreciated.
:hug:
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retrofuturist
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

I meditated this morning from 3:00 - 3:45am. A feature of the session was the combination of sloth/torpor with an absence of 'distracting thoughts'. Seemingly, rather than cultivate any samatha or vipassana, I was simply open to whatever was experienced.

Then, on account of the lack of viriya, I felt tired, lay down and feel asleep dreaming about a mouse, who throughout the course of the dream evolved into a domesticated cat/rat-like creature.

:shrug:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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LonesomeYogurt
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by LonesomeYogurt »

I just got a new bench; my old handmade one was seriously impeding my progress with its uneven legs and rusty hinges haha. So hopefully I'll be up to my regular hour a day soon! Wish me luck haha.
Gain and loss, status and disgrace,
censure and praise, pleasure and pain:
these conditions among human beings are inconstant,
impermanent, subject to change.

Knowing this, the wise person, mindful,
ponders these changing conditions.
Desirable things don’t charm the mind,
undesirable ones bring no resistance.

His welcoming and rebelling are scattered,
gone to their end,
do not exist.
- Lokavipatti Sutta

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Reductor
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by Reductor »

My daughter wouldn't go to sleep when she was supposed to, so I ended up waiting longer than I had hoped. At some point I laid on the couch, and low and behold I fell asleep.

After I awoke at 12:41am, and after some deliberation, I decided on a half hour rather than an hour. It went well, and when my timer went off I was no longer struggling. I went to bed anyway, however.
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Ben
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by Ben »

Sounds good, thereductor.
One of the difficulties of being a householder is learning to bend with the wind - merging our practice with our "mundane" responsibilities.
I think what is important is the continuity of effort (whether it be maintaining set periods during the day or maintaining a mindful attitude throughout the day).
Wishing you and your family restful evenings and opportunities for you to sit.
with Metta,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Reductor
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by Reductor »

Hello again. Fine evening, ain't it? :)

Tonight I managed the entire hour. The first half hour was spent sitting, and I overcame some restlessness to establish a healthy level of sati. I observed the sense of calm in mind and body. Needless to say, calmness doesn't last, and neither does the sense of wakefulness, so I took up walking meditation. I attempted to sit again, but found that I was drowsy, and so returned to walking meditation.

And Ben, I agree wholeheartedly with you about bending with the wind - learning to both practice and live at the same time. It seemed to be the case for me, and for the occasional poster here on DW, that the effort to be a good practitioner was set at odds with the circumstance of living; in which case there is the risk of not accomplishing much of anything in either sphere. I am pretty sure there's a sutta out there on just that topic, actually.

Now, I would like to extend my encouragement to both jcprice, retro and LonesomeYogurt.

To jcprice, I hope that your practice becomes reliable and bears fruit. Feel free to post about success and struggles here on this thread, or on any other. It'll help, I think, because it is helping me.

Retro: weird! :rolleye: :jumping: :heart: I must ask why it is that you were meditating at 3am. Whatever the case, I am glad you managed it.

LonesomeYogurt, I hope you soon reach your goal, and then surpass it! And, as handsome as your last bench must have been, I suspect you new one is far superior.

Have a good night, or day, everyone.
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Ben
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by Ben »

thereductor wrote:Hello again. Fine evening, ain't it? :)
Twilight here in Tasmania.
thereductor wrote:Tonight I managed the entire hour. The first half hour was spent sitting, and I overcame some restlessness to establish a healthy level of sati. I observed the sense of calm in mind and body. Needless to say, calmness doesn't last, and neither does the sense of wakefulness, so I took up walking meditation. I attempted to sit again, but found that I was drowsy, and so returned to walking meditation.
Glad to hear it.
And Ben, I agree wholeheartedly with you about bending with the wind - learning to both practice and live at the same time. It seemed to be the case for me, and for the occasional poster here on DW, that the effort to be a good practitioner was set at odds with the circumstance of living; in which case there is the risk of not accomplishing much of anything in either sphere. I am pretty sure there's a sutta out there on just that topic, actually.
Yes, I am sure there is. In the beginning I was very fixated on doing my meditation for one hour, twice daily at set times. Then life intervenes. When my family was much younger, I found the best time for me was before dawn and again when everyone was in bed for the night. In time I just learned to let go. I found I was less stressed about practice.
Have a good night, or day, everyone.
Thanks, and you too!
with metta,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Reductor
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by Reductor »

Last night was interesting in that I was drowsy in every posture. It was a long hour.
Reductor
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by Reductor »

I didn't get around to posting here last night, but I did do my meditation hour then, and I've done it tonight also.

There is something about 11pm to 12pm (approximately) that makes me drowsy, although today wasn't nearly as bad. I've meditated at much later hours and struggled a lot less.

Any number of factors from my life may be involved, so I cannot determine the culprit just yet. Perhaps never.

Anyway, I sat and started by counting each breath until it seemed my attention was firmly turned toward the fact that I was meditating. Counting those breaths loosely at first, and then more closely, does seem a good way to reaffirm my intentions. There does come a time when such close counting of the breaths leads me into a dim state, because I am meditating late and am already drowsy.

Afterwards I counted only with the incoming breath, but felt the outgoing breath as clearly as possible. Tonight the perception of the bodily process of breathing was clear almost from the beginning, whereas other nights it starts slowly. Once this half counting was steady and reliable, and the perception of body seemed clear, I allowed my breathing to relax - which just means I was not breathing in as deeply. As that occurred my body lost tension, but my mind also relaxed, because the breath that was following was soothing. In this early stage I remained alert, mindful of body, and relaxed. It was then the case that I ceased to count, and instead observed this state. The observing part actually made the state calmer and steadier for a time.

Over time I do have to keep an eye out for changing states, which are usually states of near sleep: a soft, cosy and indistinct state. They didn't arrive tonight until I had stood up to do some walking mediation, after about 35 minutes. It was then that drowsiness seemed prevalent. I sat again, obviously by that time my mental vigour was in short supply.

I could go on, but I think it would be rather tedious to those that read these posts. If it isn't already. :thinking:

Take care.

:heart:
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cooran
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Re: The Dhamma Wheel Meditation Challenge

Post by cooran »

Hello thereductor,

Not tedious at all - I'm finding it interesting. I wonder ... what time do you get up in the morning? Sitting to meditate at 11 p.m. seems very late to me ... I'm regularly in bed two hours before that. But I do get up in the morning around 5 a.m.

with metta
Chris
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---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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