Porn Free for 90 Days

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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby dhamma_newb » Sat Apr 07, 2012 6:55 pm

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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 07, 2012 7:15 pm

That was one very shallow talk.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby dhamma_newb » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:17 pm

tiltbillings wrote:That was one very shallow talk.


Why?
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby Ferox » Sat Apr 07, 2012 9:46 pm

I think the issue here is having to make a "vow" to do it.... making vows leads to failure and then feeling bad for yourself when you cannot meet the vows as the change has not come across naturally through practice.

I posted in another thread about how I came to the point a few months back that I called " spontaneous celibacy".. where I noticed a huge portion of my craving and passion for anything sexual just sort of.. went away. Now I'm not claiming they are gone at the root, far from it.. but I can now see more clearly that any kind of sexual activity can be observed like any other object of meditation and you can start to see there being little to no point to it, and how it is harmful to practice and to my goals of seeing things as they truly are.

I am in the prime of my life, I weight a lot less and look a lot better then I ever have, women pay much more attention to me then they ever have.. and I have little desire to date and i can see that more of my interactions with women are less and less based from a motive of wanting to "be" with them. When the "cloud" starts to part and you see things more clearly, even in moments of ecstasy.. you start see the truth of things.

so anyways, like I tell people, don't worry about needing to make vows to stop this or that.. just practice and it will come.
-just one more being treading the ancient path of Dhamma-
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby dhamma_newb » Sat Apr 07, 2012 11:01 pm

Thanks Ferox for sharing. I just listened to a Dhamma talk by Joseph Goldstein and he mentioned being able to distinguish between aspirations and expectations in practice. I think this piece of advice is a very helpful reminder.
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby tiltbillings » Sun Apr 08, 2012 5:11 am

dhamma_newb wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That was one very shallow talk.


Why?
I listened to it again. Early on in the talk our good monk says he is not going make value laden statements, but then towards the end he characterizes sex as being bestial, but to my great amusement he also talks about being mindful when masturbating. That is something I jokingly suggested in this thread:

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6847

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... =60#p27345

and I was rather roundly abused for such a suggestion.

Ven Yuttadhammo points out that the negative responses to such things as masturbation (as we see in the above linked thread) are likely the result of unhealthy responses to sex. While being a monastic celibacy is the rule, it is not a requirement for a lay-person and what really is not discussed clearly in the linked talk is what a healthy attitude towards sex might look like. At the end of the talk we get a lot of rather strong negative value judgments leveled at the idea of sex of the sort that tends to give rise to an unhealthy and negative response to sex. And I agree with Ven Y that it is an unhealthy response to sex that can give rise to an obsessive preoccupation with sex, be it pornography or body-negative/sex-negative puritanism.

There are a lot of questions here which I do not think Ven Yuttadhammo clarified; rather, he simply added to the confusion.

So, the questions are: why are you doing what you are doing, and what do you expect to get out of it? (which are for you to answer for yourself; I am not expecting an answewr.)

As for what you are going to get of your 90 day experiment, I would suggest that there be no expectations; rather, I would suggest that you be as open as you can be to what your experience tells you, and even that should be open to question.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby dhamma_newb » Sun Apr 08, 2012 12:40 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma_newb wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That was one very shallow talk.


Why?
I listened to it again. Early on in the talk our good monk says he is not going make value laden statements, but then towards the end he characterizes sex as being bestial, but to my great amusement he also talks about being mindful when masturbating. That is something I jokingly suggested in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6847

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6847&start=60#p27345

and I was rather roundly abused for such a suggestion.

Ven Yuttadhammo points out that the negative responses to such things as masturbation (as we see in the above linked thread) are likely the result of unhealthy responses to sex. While being a monastic celibacy is the rule, it is not a requirement for a lay-person and what really is not discussed clearly in the linked talk is what a healthy attitude towards sex might look like. At the end of the talk we get a lot of rather strong negative value judgments leveled at the idea of sex of the sort that tends to give rise to an unhealthy and negative response to sex. And I agree with Ven Y that it is an unhealthy response to sex that can give rise to an obsessive preoccupation with it be it pornography or body-negative/sex-negative puritanism.

There are a lot of questions here which I do not think Ven Yuttadhammo clarified; rather, he simply added to the confusion.


So where does a lay-person go for clarification on what a healthy attitude towards sex is?

tiltbillings wrote:So, the questions are: why are you doing what you are doing, and what do you expect to get out of it? (which are for you to answer for yourself; I am not expecting an answewr.)

As for what you are going to get of your 90 day experiment, I would suggest that there be no expectations; rather, I would suggest that you be as open as you can be to what your experience tells you, and even that should be open to question.


Thanks for writing this tilt. I'm going to sit with these words for awhile.
The watched mind brings happiness.
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby reflection » Sun Apr 08, 2012 10:15 pm

dhamma_newb wrote:@ Sarva,

Thanks for the support :) .

reflection wrote:I'm going to try it too. (after seeing the movie Shame, which is about sex addiction) No masturbation/sex/porn for 90 days.. Already made it for a few days, I guess, but I'll start counting now. This'll be interesting at least.. :tongue:

If someone wants to talk about it, you can always sent a personal message.


As a support to others:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7S84du6yH0


Hey reflection, a friend took me along to watch Shame and I didn't even know what it was about but the movie really hit home and I think it did a good job of showing how empty the endless pursuit of sexual gratification is. Good luck with your 90 days and I wish you the best. Take care.

With Metta,
Don

I really liked the movie. The emotional tension in the sexual scenes was even so high, that for me personally it wasn't the slightest bit of arousing. However, I wouldn't recommend this movie to everybody who tries to abstain from sexuality because it has some very explicit content.. :P

And thanks. Good luck to you too. :twothumbsup:
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby dhamma_newb » Sun Apr 08, 2012 11:47 pm

reflection wrote:
dhamma_newb wrote:@ Sarva,

Thanks for the support :) .

reflection wrote:I'm going to try it too. (after seeing the movie Shame, which is about sex addiction) No masturbation/sex/porn for 90 days.. Already made it for a few days, I guess, but I'll start counting now. This'll be interesting at least.. :tongue:

If someone wants to talk about it, you can always sent a personal message.


As a support to others:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R7S84du6yH0


Hey reflection, a friend took me along to watch Shame and I didn't even know what it was about but the movie really hit home and I think it did a good job of showing how empty the endless pursuit of sexual gratification is. Good luck with your 90 days and I wish you the best. Take care.

With Metta,
Don

I really liked the movie. The emotional tension in the sexual scenes was even so high, that for me personally it wasn't the slightest bit of arousing. However, I wouldn't recommend this movie to everybody who tries to abstain from sexuality because it has some very explicit content.. :P

And thanks. Good luck to you too. :twothumbsup:


Yeah I liked the movie too. I think Michael Fassbender is an excellent actor.
The watched mind brings happiness.
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I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby Monkey Mind » Mon Apr 09, 2012 2:59 am

"Shame" won't be released in the USA until April 17. I have added it to my list of must-sees.
"As I am, so are others;
as others are, so am I."
Having thus identified self and others,
harm no one nor have them harmed.

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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:08 am

dhamma_newb wrote:So where does a lay-person go for clarification on what a healthy attitude towards sex is?
Probably not to a relatively young and inexperienced monk.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby Ben » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:15 am

Hi Don,
dhamma_newb wrote:So where does a lay-person go for clarification on what a healthy attitude towards sex is?


I think one of the complicating issues, and no doubt you are abundantly aware of this, that in the west we live immersed in a culture that sees the gratification of sensual desire as one of life's (if not the most) important aspirations and goals. It makes things difficult - finding that healthy attitude or balance.

My suggestion to you is to seek the counsel of some of your lay and monastic Dhamma friends or those that you feel some resonance with or connection with. They maybe able to provide you with some useful guidance and reassurance that you're not alone nor Robinson Caruso.
with Metta,

Ben
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby tiltbillings » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:24 am

Ben wrote:Hi Don,
dhamma_newb wrote:So where does a lay-person go for clarification on what a healthy attitude towards sex is?


I think one of the complicating issues, and no doubt you are abundantly aware of this, that in the west we live immersed in a culture that sees the gratification of sensual desire as one of life's (if not the most) important aspirations and goals. It makes things difficult - finding that healthy attitude or balance.

My suggestion to you is to seek the counsel of some of your lay and monastic Dhamma friends or those that you feel some resonance with or connection with. They maybe able to provide you with some useful guidance and reassurance that you're not alone nor Robinson Caruso.
with Metta,

Ben
The question is, of course, what is a healthy attitude towards sex for a lay-person? Obviously, opinion are going to severely vary. In my opinion if one takes a look at this thread

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6847

one is going to see a lot of sex-negative/body-negative unhealthy stuff. Actually, there is no simple answer to the question, and like anything as we move through life we need to be kind to ourselves and to question our answers.
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond.
SN I, 38.

Ar scáth a chéile a mhaireas na daoine.
People live in one another’s shelter.
"We eat cold eels and think distant thoughts." -- Jack Johnson
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby Ben » Mon Apr 09, 2012 7:33 am

tiltbillings wrote:The question is, of course, what is a healthy attitude towards sex for a lay-person? Obviously, opinion are going to severely vary. In my opinion if one takes a look at this thread

http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6847

one is going to see a lot of sex-negative/body-negative unhealthy stuff. Actually, there is no simple answer to the question, and like anything as we move through life we need to be kind to ourselves and to question our answers.


A very brief reply - I couldn't agree with you more, Tilt!
kind regards,
Ben
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

Sayagyi U Ba Khin


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby dhamma_newb » Mon Apr 09, 2012 9:58 am

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma_newb wrote:So where does a lay-person go for clarification on what a healthy attitude towards sex is?
Probably not to a relatively young and inexperienced monk.


Point taken.

Ben wrote:Hi Don,
dhamma_newb wrote:So where does a lay-person go for clarification on what a healthy attitude towards sex is?
My suggestion to you is to seek the counsel of some of your lay and monastic Dhamma friends or those that you feel some resonance with or connection with. They maybe able to provide you with some useful guidance and reassurance that you're not alone nor Robinson Caruso.


Why do you think I'm posting this here Ben?

tiltbillings wrote:The question is, of course, what is a healthy attitude towards sex for a lay-person? Obviously, opinion are going to severely vary. In my opinion if one takes a look at this thread

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=6847

one is going to see a lot of sex-negative/body-negative unhealthy stuff. Actually, there is no simple answer to the question, and like anything as we move through life we need to be kind to ourselves and to question our answers.


The only thing I got out of that thread is a headache, and not the good kind ;) . I think your advice to be kind to myself and to question my answers is probably all I need to figure this out. Thanks again.
The watched mind brings happiness.
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I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby Ben » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:09 am

Hi Don,
I appreciate your frustration with my response. However, having witnessed the various discussions on masturbation - one of which is nearly 100 pages in extent, canvassing widely for your opinions may lead to greater confusion rather than clarity.
If I have time later tonight I will reply with a more substantial reply to my earlier one.
kind regards,

Ben
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby dhamma_newb » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:16 am

Ben wrote:Hi Don,
I appreciate your frustration with my response. However, having witnessed the various discussions on masturbation - one of which is nearly 100 pages in extent, canvassing widely for your opinions may lead to greater confusion rather than clarity.
If I have time later tonight I will reply with a more substantial reply to my earlier one.
kind regards,

Ben


Hi Ben,

You totally misunderstood what I said.

dhamma_newb wrote:
Ben wrote:Hi Don,
dhamma_newb wrote:So where does a lay-person go for clarification on what a healthy attitude towards sex is?
My suggestion to you is to seek the counsel of some of your lay and monastic Dhamma friends or those that you feel some resonance with or connection with. They maybe able to provide you with some useful guidance and reassurance that you're not alone nor Robinson Caruso.


Why do you think I'm posting this here Ben?


What I meant was that I consider DW members as Dhamma friends and that is why I am seeking advice on this forum.
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby Ben » Mon Apr 09, 2012 10:44 am

Hi Don,
dhamma_newb wrote:What I meant was that I consider DW members as Dhamma friends and that is why I am seeking advice on this forum.

Yes, I understand that and there is certainly nothing at all wrong with considering DW members as your Dhamma friends. In fact it is admirable.
However, as I mentioned above, casting the net widely and canvassing for the views of many - you will get many differing points of view and no guarantee of consensus. Hence, it may lead you to greater confusion than clarity.
I am fortunate to have a large number of Dhamma friends, though there are very few I speak to about issues relating to my own practice. I seek out the views of those I have a great deal of confidence in. I don't think its such a bad strategy.
kind regards,

Ben
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

Sayagyi U Ba Khin


Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global Relief
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby Mr Man » Mon Apr 09, 2012 6:48 pm

I think that there is some interesting food for contemplation in this talk by Krishnamurti http://www.jkrishnamurti.org/krishnamurti-teachings/print.php?tid=779&chid=5096.
:anjali:
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Re: Porn Free for 90 Days

Postby perkele » Mon Apr 09, 2012 8:35 pm

tiltbillings wrote:
dhamma_newb wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:That was one very shallow talk.


Why?
I listened to it again. Early on in the talk our good monk says he is not going make value laden statements, but then towards the end he characterizes sex as being bestial,

Don't you think you are overreacting here a little bit, tilt? I mean, it's true, he used that word. But I did not perceive it to come off as overly judgemental. He rather said it more or less in passing and a bit tongue-in-cheek. Moreover I think it does have some truth to it, a truth that most of us can live with rather comfortably, I guess. I think he conveyed a valid point in quite an unostentatious way.
But well, perceptions vary. Anyway...
tiltbillings wrote:...
As for what you are going to get of your 90 day experiment, I would suggest that there be no expectations; rather, I would suggest that you be as open as you can be to what your experience tells you, and even that should be open to question.

Agree.

@Don: Good to hear you're still well on track. I for one think that this is a worthwhile endeavour, no matter the "end-result", so thanks for initiating this. :twothumbsup: I intend to carry this through. It's been worthwhile so far.
Those who are ashamed of what they should be ashamed of, and are not ashamed of what they should not be ashamed of -- upholding true views, they do not go to states of woe.
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