The no-doer in the modern world

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: The no-doer in the modern world

Post by kirk5a »

Sarva wrote:Thank you, all for the replies!
kirk5a wrote:
Sarva wrote: The conceit is indeed deep, how are actions to be understood when the conceit is removed completely, is there "just this happening now"?
If I said "please pass the sugar" would there be any confusion about that action?
Hi Kirk
No, no confusion, just thought and action.
Good. That's it.

There is no doer, no-self. What seem unclear is why action continues to occour.
Even a sense of responsibility to engage in the world as I intially proposed above, can be reduced to an idea, but ultimately it is known that it is not "my idea."

I feel close to the brink of a form of hard determinism in this approach; evenything just happening, even choice is made because choice is being made. Is that correct?
That is an idea. Don't cling to that and there won't be a problem. If someone says "please pass the sugar" you do it because it is the appropriate and harmonious thing to do. Just thinking and action. No philosophical confusion.
Last edited by kirk5a on Tue Apr 10, 2012 3:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
daverupa
Posts: 5980
Joined: Mon Jan 31, 2011 6:58 pm

Re: The no-doer in the modern world

Post by daverupa »

Sarva wrote:What seem unclear is why action continues to occour... I feel close to the brink of a form of hard determinism in this approach; evenything just happening, even choice is made because choice is being made. Is that correct?
So, action occurs because one clings. Clinging, one is reckoned a being, and beings intend this or that, for good or ill. So it is that a being can desire to put an end to desire, and train themselves according to the Dhamma, eventually resulting in the cessation of being due to the cessation of clinging. You may grasp that the phrase "I am the doer" is incorrect, but when this isn't seen for oneself, one must practice - and the practice is not to stare at the phrase and repeat "that is a mistaken view", but instead to simply engage with the gradual path. As MN 2 recommends, setting aside this confusion about "me" is correct, not pursuing the confusion and seeking a satisfying intellectual resolution.

As to determinism, it is the case that all conditioned things have a cause, including behavior, but of the many causes and conditions which are at work, "choice" is among them. One can still choose, even though that choice is informed by other facts (one cannot choose to grow feathers, but one can choose to meditate versus watching television). The fact that the Dhamma is now a cause and a condition in the world, according to which we can choose truly wholesome behaviors which lead onwards, is the reason why it's so precious.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
User avatar
Bhikkhu Pesala
Posts: 4646
Joined: Thu Jan 29, 2009 8:17 pm

Re: The no-doer in the modern world

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala »

The not-doer should not do any evil action — Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ.

The doer shoud do any wholesome actions they can — kusalassa upasampadā.

The followers of the Buddha should purify their minds — Sacittapariyodapanaṃ

Whenever unwholesome mental states arise, or whenever one meets circumstances in which they might arise, which is pretty much inevitable in this world, there is an opportunity to develop Right Effort to prevent and remove defilements.

Inactivity in the case of things that should be done is also due to lack of mindfulness, effort, and other skilful mental states, or the presence of unskilful states such as fear, laziness, miserliness, etc.
BlogPāli FontsIn This Very LifeBuddhist ChroniclesSoftware (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: The no-doer in the modern world

Post by ground »

Sarva wrote:How is ... If there is ... then how is ...? Surely it isn't ... ?
Don't know where all the 'is' and 'isn't' arise from. If there is 'is' then there will be the arising of 'isn't' and vv. If there is 'if' then there will be the arising of 'then'. Mysterious. :smile:
User avatar
ground
Posts: 2591
Joined: Wed Nov 25, 2009 6:01 am

Re: The no-doer in the modern world

Post by ground »

All this confusion may arise from thinking mind or - to put it differently, to put it "more digestible for ordinary mind" - this confusion may arise when a householder wants to achieve what cannot be achieved by a householder. Reason is that all the teachings are available today for everybody. The Buddha seemed to be more careful with dispensing his teachings.

So for the time being pragmatism may be helpful: Just do what necessarily needs to be done but don't get involved (caught up) in this doing.

Kind regards
User avatar
bodom
Posts: 7216
Joined: Fri Jan 09, 2009 6:18 pm
Location: San Antonio, Texas

Re: The no-doer in the modern world

Post by bodom »

Buddhadasa:
Keep in mind the principle of doerless doing: 

The doing is done but no doer is there.
The path has been walked but no walker is there. 

This verse refers to the arahant, the one who has practised Dhamma, or who has walked the Noble Path to its very end and who has reached Nibbana, but with no walker or no practiser to be found. 

The principle of doerless doing must be taken up and utilized in our daily lives. Whether we're eating, sitting, laying down, standing, walking,  using, seeking, whatever we're doing we must have enough truth-discerning awareness to prevent the arising of the feeling of 'I'- the feeling that 'I' am the doer, 'I' am the eater: the walker, the sitter, the sleeper or the user. We must make the mind constantly empty of ego, so that emptiness is the natural state and we abide with the awareness that there is nothing worth having or being.
http://what-buddha-taught.net/Books/Bhi ... _EMPTINESS" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: The no-doer in the modern world

Post by Sarva »

Thanks all
I am very grateful for the helpful replies. I am going to 'let go' and not think so much about this for the moment. :) :namaste:
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86
Post Reply