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No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness - Dhamma Wheel

No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 20, 2012 3:50 am

Greetings,

In SN 47.42: Samudaya Sutta, the Buddha teaches the following...

Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo
manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṃ atthaṅgamo


"With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas
With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas"

Thus, there are no sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness, because once awareness leaves, the dhamma ceases.

1. Do you agree with this conclusion?

2. Whether you do or do not, what implication does this extract from the Sutta Pitaka have on our task of mental cultivation? (i.e. what should we do, what should we stop doing, what should we do differently, which assumptions or views should we revisit?)

:meditate:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:19 am


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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:31 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:40 am


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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:46 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:51 am


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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 20, 2012 4:58 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:16 am


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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:26 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:33 am


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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:36 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:43 am


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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:44 am

Image

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:49 am


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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 20, 2012 5:57 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby piotr » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:08 am

Hi Retro,

I'd suggest that here (in context of satipaṭṭhānas) term dhammā stands exclusively for bojjhaṅgas. Later I can provide some references to the Suttas which strongly support this interpretation.
Bhagavaṃmūlakā no, bhante, dhammā...

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:10 am

Greetings Piotr,

I look forward to it! Thanks!

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby kirk5a » Fri Apr 20, 2012 6:33 pm

"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby rowyourboat » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:00 pm

Hi Retro

It seems Dhammas here refer to mental objects (as per fourth foundation of mindfulness.) Here is an alternate translation. I think that version makes more sense.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

With metta

Matheesha
With Metta

Karuna
Mudita
& Upekkha

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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby Viscid » Fri Apr 20, 2012 7:53 pm

So, then, this sutta is simply stating that proper attention cultivates qualities/factors which lead to awakening, while improper attention diminishes such factors.. rather than the idealist slant that retro seemed to be suggesting in the OP?
"What holds attention determines action." - William James


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