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No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness - Page 3 - Dhamma Wheel

No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
Sarva
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby Sarva » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:32 am

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

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tiltbillings
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:32 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 21, 2012 7:56 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sarva
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby Sarva » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:10 am

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

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tiltbillings
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:10 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:17 am

Greetings,

:goodpost:

Awesome collection of comments and quotes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:18 am


Sarva
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby Sarva » Sat Apr 21, 2012 8:38 am

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

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tiltbillings
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby tiltbillings » Sat Apr 21, 2012 6:23 pm


vinasp
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby vinasp » Sat Apr 21, 2012 9:50 pm

Hi Retro,

From The OP:

Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo
manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṃ atthaṅgamo

"With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas
With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas"

Thus, there are no sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness, because once awareness leaves, the dhamma ceases.

----------------------- End Quote -----------------------------

The term "atthangama" means: setting down.

So a better translation would be as follows:

Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo
manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṃ atthaṅgamo

"With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas
With the cessation of attentiveness there is the setting down of dhammas"

Note: The attention does cease, but the dhammas do not, they are set down.

Your conclusion is, therefore, unjustified - quote:

Thus, there are no sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness, because once awareness leaves, the dhamma ceases. [end quote.]

Attention is not the same as awareness. when one no longer attends to a dhamma
then it is "set down". It recedes into the "background" from which it was first
"brought to mind" by the act of attending to it.

Regards, Vincent.

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retrofuturist
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Sat Apr 21, 2012 10:30 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby vinasp » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:39 am

Hi Retro,

I have looked into the meaning of atthangama in more detail, and I accept that
it can also mean; fall, pass away, and disappear.

So I was wrong in suggesting that it can only mean "setting down".

My DPR did not bring up the full dictionary entry as it usually does.

[ Well .... that is my excuse anyway.]

Regards, Vincent.

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retrofuturist
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Apr 22, 2012 1:40 am

Greetings Vincent,

No need for excuses, I appreciate the positive contribution to the topic!

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

vinasp
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Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby vinasp » Sun Apr 22, 2012 2:21 am

Hi Retro,

You have mentioned SN 35.23 - The All.

To me, this "all" seems to be incomplete, missing certain things.

What do you think?

EDIT: I can start another thread if you do not wish to discuss "The All" here.

Regards, Vincent.

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retrofuturist
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Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Postby retrofuturist » Sun Apr 22, 2012 10:48 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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