No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

:goodpost:

Awesome collection of comments and quotes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

:goodpost:

Awesome collection of comments and quotes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thank you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by Sarva »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

:goodpost:

Awesome collection of comments and quotes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Agreed, thanks a lot Tilt, your time collecting those in response is appreciated!

I fear I have already distracted from Retro's OP, so if you don't mind I might start a new post, quoting our replies, to explore this area as I feel it would benefit me and perhaps still be of interest to you or others.

:anjali:
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by tiltbillings »

Sarva wrote:
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

:goodpost:

Awesome collection of comments and quotes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Agreed, thanks a lot Tilt, your time collecting those in response is appreciated!

I fear I have already distracted from Retro's OP, so if you don't mind I might start a new post, quoting our replies, to explore this area as I feel it would benefit me and perhaps still be of interest to you or others.
You are welcoms, and a new thread would be a good idea.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by vinasp »

Hi Retro,

From The OP:

Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo
manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṃ atthaṅgamo

"With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas
With the cessation of attentiveness there is the cessation of dhammas"

Thus, there are no sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness, because once awareness leaves, the dhamma ceases.

----------------------- End Quote -----------------------------

The term "atthangama" means: setting down.

So a better translation would be as follows:

Manasikārasamudayā dhammānaṃ samudayo
manasikāranirodhā dhammānaṃ atthaṅgamo

"With the arising of attentiveness there is the arising of dhammas
With the cessation of attentiveness there is the setting down of dhammas"

Note: The attention does cease, but the dhammas do not, they are set down.

Your conclusion is, therefore, unjustified - quote:

Thus, there are no sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness, because once awareness leaves, the dhamma ceases. [end quote.]

Attention is not the same as awareness. when one no longer attends to a dhamma
then it is "set down". It recedes into the "background" from which it was first
"brought to mind" by the act of attending to it.

Regards, Vincent.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,

Very interesting find - translating atthaṅgama as "setting down" definition does indeed lead to a less definitive outcome... it feels to have similar connotations to unbind, release etc.

A broader survey of translations however gives a somewhat different feel...

- Nyanasatta translates it as "passing away" in his translation of Satipatthana Sutta (MN 10) - http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nysa.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Tzungkuen Wen also translates it as "passing away" in "A Study of Sukkhavipassaka in Pāli Buddhism" - http://tkwen.theravada-chinese.org/A%20 ... _final.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Piya Tan translates it as "ending" here in his translation of Ca Dhamma Samādāna Sutta - http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 5-piya.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- Nanamoli &/or Bodhi translate it is "disappearance" here - http://www.bps.lk/olib/wh/wh390-u.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
- "Decay" here - https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&rct= ... NvlymWgVJg" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; - according to Google's search results, but the site is presently down
- A condensed transcript of an S.N. Goenka Sattipathana course discourse translates it as "eradicated" at one point and "annihilation, disappearance" at another - http://zencohen.us/?p=456" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Finally, the Pali Text Society's Pali-English Dictionary says... http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... 1:539.pali" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Attha

Attha2 (nt.) [Vedic asta, of uncertain etym.] home, primarily as place of rest & shelter, but in P. phraseology abstracted from the "going home", i. e. setting of the sun, as disappearance, going out of existence, annihilation, extinction. Only in acc. and as ˚ -- in foll phrases: atthangacchati to disappear, to go out of existence, to vanish Dh 226 (= vināsaŋ natthibhāvaŋ gacchati DhA iii.324), 384 (= parikkhayaŋ gacchati); pp. atthangata gone home, gone to rest, gone, disappeared; of the sun (= set): J i.175 (atthangate suriye at sunset); PvA 55 (id.) 216 (anatthangate s. before sunset) fig. Sn 472 (atthagata). 475 (id.); 1075 (= niruddha ucchinṇa vinaṭṭha anupādi -- sesāya nibbāna -- dhātuyā nibbuta); It 58; Dhs 1038; Vbh 195. -- atthagatatta (nt. abstr.) disappearance SnA 409. -- atthangama (atthagama passim) annihilation, disappearance; opposed to samudaya (coming into existence) and synonymous with nirodha (destruction) D i.34, 37, 183; S iv.327; A iii.326; Ps ii.4, 6, 39; Pug 52; Dhs 165, 265, 501, 579; Vbh 105. -- atthagamana (nt.) setting (of the sun) J i.101 (suriyass' atthagamanā at sunset) DA i.95 (= ogamana). -- attha -- gāmin, in phrase udayɔ atthagāmin leading to birth and death (of paññā): see udaya. -- atthaŋ paleti = atthangacchati (fig.) Sn 1074 (= atthangameti nirujjhati Nd2 28). -- Also atthamita (pp. of i) set (of the sun) in phrase anatthamite suriye before sunset (with anatthangamite as v. l. at both pass.) DhA i.86; iii.127. -- Cp. also abbhattha.
Since the PTS Dictionary is correct in that it is juxtaposed against samudaya, it made sense also to look up its opposite... http://dsal.uchicago.edu/cgi-bin/philol ... li.1852640" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Samudaya

Samudaya [saŋ+udaya] 1. rise, origin D i.17; ii.33, 308; iii.227; A i.263 (kamma˚); Vin i.10; Sn p. 135; It 16 (samuddaya metri causa) etc. dukkha˚ the origin of ill, the second ariya -- sacca, e. g. D iii.136; A i.177; Vism 495 (where samudaya is expld in its parts as sam+ u+aya); VbhA 124. -- 2. bursting forth, effulgence (pabhā˚) J i.83. -- 3. produce, revenue D i.227.
Anyway, your discovery also prompted me to do some further digging on the other sutta upon which this perspective primarily resides.
AN 3.47-3.48 wrote:"Monks, these three are fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated. Which three? Arising is discernible, passing away is discernible, alteration (literally, other-ness) while staying is discernible.

"These are three fabricated characteristics of what is fabricated.

"Now these three are unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated. Which three? No arising is discernible, no passing away is discernible, no alteration while staying is discernible.

"These are three unfabricated characteristics of what is unfabricated."
In Pali...
‘‘Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, saṅkhatassa saṅkhatalakkhaṇāni. Katamāni tīṇi? Uppādo paññāyati, vayo paññāyati, ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi saṅkhatassa saṅkhatalakkhaṇānī’’ti. Sattamaṃ.

‘Tīṇimāni, bhikkhave, asaṅkhatassa asaṅkhatalakkhaṇāni. Katamāni tīṇi? Na uppādo paññāyati, na vayo paññāyati, na ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ paññāyati. Imāni kho, bhikkhave, tīṇi asaṅkhatassa asaṅkhatalakkhaṇānī’’ti. Aṭṭhamaṃ.
Regarding this, I came across the following... http://www.nibbanam.com/nibbana_sermon2e.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Nanananda, in Nibbana Sermons wrote:In the Section-of-the-Threes in the Aṅguttara Nikāya the three characteristics of a saṅkhata are explained in this order: Uppādo pañ­ñāyati, vayo paññāyati, ṭhitassa aññathattaṃ pañ­ñā­yati,[26] "an aris­ing is manifest, a passing away is manifest and an otherwise-ness in the persisting is manifest."
This implies that the persistence is only apparent and that is why it is mentioned last. There is an otherwise-ness even in this appar­ently persistent. But later scholars preferred to speak of three stages as uppāda, ṭhiti, bhaṅga,[27] "arising, persis­tence and breaking up". However the law of impermanence could be suffi­ciently understood even with the help of two words, itthabhāva and aññathābhāva, this-ness and otherwise-ness. Very often we find the Buddha summing up the law of impermanence in the two words samudaya and vaya, "arising" and "passing away".[28]
There is an apparent contradiction in the phrase ṭhitassa añ­ña­that­ta, but it reminds us of the fact that what the world takes as static or persisting is actually not so. The so-called `static' is from begin­ning to end an otherwise-ness. Now if we are to relate this to the two links jāti and jarā­maraṇaṃ in paṭicca samup­pāda, we may say that as soon as one is born the process of oth­er­wise-ness sets in.

[26] A I 152, Saïkhatalakkhaõasutta.
[27] E.g. at Ps IV 88.
[28] E.g. at M I 56, Satipaññhànasutta.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by vinasp »

Hi Retro,

I have looked into the meaning of atthangama in more detail, and I accept that
it can also mean; fall, pass away, and disappear.

So I was wrong in suggesting that it can only mean "setting down".

My DPR did not bring up the full dictionary entry as it usually does.

[ Well .... that is my excuse anyway.]

Regards, Vincent.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,

No need for excuses, I appreciate the positive contribution to the topic!

:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by vinasp »

Hi Retro,

You have mentioned SN 35.23 - The All.

To me, this "all" seems to be incomplete, missing certain things.

What do you think?

EDIT: I can start another thread if you do not wish to discuss "The All" here.

Regards, Vincent.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: No sankhata dhammas existing outside of present awareness

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Vincent,
vinasp wrote:To me, this "all" seems to be incomplete, missing certain things.

What do you think?
It doesn't seem to miss any fabricated phenomena (sankhata-dhammas) that I've ever experienced and could speak about. What about you?

It could be said to miss the asakhata-dhamma, i.e. nibbana, however. Otherwise, it covers everything experienceable.
vinasp wrote:EDIT: I can start another thread if you do not wish to discuss "The All" here.
No, that's fine... I think it's directly relevant and on topic.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Post Reply