my goals and ways of practice

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
ohnofabrications
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my goals and ways of practice

Post by ohnofabrications »

Hello everyone, i have a couple questions about my own practice. I'll get right to it.

1. Having practiced concentration for about 1.5 years with decent dedication, I believe I have attained some degree of mastery (being able to easily abide in) of 4th jhana, it seems to match the suttic descriptions though not all of the post-suttic stuff. I'll briefly describe what i think are the first 4 jhanas in my experience, the way of practice on and off the cushion for me was always noticing the breath (throughout the whole body) and relaxing as much as possible.

1st: onset of pleasure, starting often in the heart area - thoughts are still occurring, a feeling as if the pleasure is connected to the breath and is localized around the feeling of breath
2nd: after continuing to release what seem to be blockages of breath the pleasure spreads itself throughout the entire body except for the head, which i can't seem to unblock
3rd: the pleasure loses some 'coarse' aspect, which happens through further relaxation, sort of lessening the 'excitement' response in regard to the pure pleasure which underlies it
4th: after continuing to go further and further into relinquishing this excitement the pleasure seems to dissipate, becoming all the more pure, eventually it's purity becomes complete and it is simply awareness, the awareness is spread basically everywhere, 360 degrees.

does this sound right? how do i progress into formless realms?

2. after having got stuck, unable to move into formless jhana, i started simply getting into (what seems to be) 4th jhana and then exploring the causes of stress as i understood them in that state.
i saw these three causes:
a. tension, simply the bodily+mental tightness which occurs mostly with emotions and in areas of physical pain - the solution here is simply letting go
b. 'fuzziness' of attention, in which some part experience is obscured. this comes with 'focusing' on some part of experience, which seems to be the same thing as obscuring all of experience which isn't being focused on. as attention jumps around this fuzziness moves to wherever the 'attention' isn't. i have taken this to be something alot of the thai forest ajans are pointing to when they say to notice the difference between the object and the awareness of the object - the solution here seems to also be letting go =], when i no longer desire to change the object of focus, there is no need to obscure the rest of experience and everything comes into a sort of clear 'all-around' view.
c. narratives and 'stories' and perceptions this bit seems simple enough, and the answer is again letting go =]=]

firstly, do people recognize what i am talking about with each of these? they all seem to be defilements which make up unskillful states and so i attempt to abandon them. secondly, do these three things correlate to specific parts of the 12 links in dependent co-arising(i speculate clinging, craving, becoming)? thirdly, which should i focus on ending? the intuitive answer for me currently is the b. which brings me to my next question...

3. having explained basically all of my understanding of the phenomenological aspects of suffering and the way to their end - i will explain to you my current practice, which i don't see described in the suttas except (perhaps) as 'themeless concentration'. what i am now doing (after giving up with progressing past 4th jhana) is this: I simply work with letting go on that second aspect of suffering mentioned above, I attempt to focus on nothing and allow all 6 sense doors experience to come through unhampered, seen with equal (and maximal) clarity (that is the ideal of practice, it only occasionally actually happens). doing this practice has brought me to a temporary peek at what i hypothesize the end of suffering would be like in which all three of the mentioned aspects above were totally and completely absent gone without a trace. does anyone recognize this, and now that you have seen a good deal about my practice and understanding what would you recommend?

4. are emotions (which seem to be made up of those three parts of suffering) part of what is experienced after the end of suffering? given my experience i would definitely say no, but most 'enlightened' teachers seem to say that this isn't the case, however those who do say this seem to teach something which is more focused on realizing the 3 characteristics, rather than moving towards wholesome states, their practice seems to be focused on dissociating from unskillful states(rather than ending unskillful states)... mostly they come from zen backgrounds, though a few come from theravada. again the only people i have seen who seem to really focus on actually ending unskillful states seem to be thai forest teachers... however this view is likely caused by the fact that I know practically nothing of most other traditions. i would prefer to leave out any sectarian conflict here (as i am sure everyone from every sect would :o), but i couldn't figure out how to phrase my confusion about this issue without raising at least some of that conflict.

i apologize for putting so much into one thread, each of those 4 could probably be its own thread, but now you know basically everything i know about the practical aspects of meditation practice, and hopefully you can guide me =]
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reflection
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by reflection »

Hi ohnofabrications,

First of all welcome to the board!

Personally I don't agree with your notion of the jhanas, I could argue why, however, there is already a debate about this on this board, so you can look it up. ;) It would be sad if you're ideas are incorrect and you're developing the wrong thing - so see this just as a consideration, not as me trying to prove you (or anybody else) wrong or something. :)

But more important, leaving aside any specific ideas about the jhanas, I'd like to say that such a goal-focussed approach may not be the most skillful or fastest way. At least, I know for me it isn't. Having goals in mind is a form of craving. Whether they are nirvana, jhanas or even just to be without thoughts, they all obstruct the peace which you are actually looking for. So you just have to arrive here, not going towards a goal. Otherwise, it'll be like the donkey and the carrot.

With metta,
Reflection
Cafael Dust
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by Cafael Dust »

2nd: after continuing to release what seem to be blockages of breath the pleasure spreads itself throughout the entire body except for the head, which i can't seem to unblock
Hi there. Did the head unblock after this stage? It's not clear from your writing.

From a practical point of view, and this is purely my opinion and not the orthodox view, I would carry on focusing on the breath, while this makes sense.

You need to use this to see anatta, but obviously that isn't an absence you can just choose to see. Be patient but persevere consistently, not only when you are on the mat but at all times.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
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Goofaholix
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by Goofaholix »

I think you need to be in contact with a teacher skilled in navigating the jhanas, though your written description is quite thorough it will be difficult to get accurate feedback on a public forum like this, especially as most people probably do vipassana type practices.

I think it's pretty foolhardy to try and progress beyond first jhana without guidance from a teacher as it's easy to decceive oneself.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
ohnofabrications
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by ohnofabrications »

But more important, leaving aside any specific ideas about the jhanas, I'd like to say that such a goal-focussed approach may not be the most skillful or fastest way. At least, I know for me it isn't. Having goals in mind is a form of craving. Whether they are nirvana, jhanas or even just to be without thoughts, they all obstruct the peace which you are actually looking for. So you just have to arrive here, not going towards a goal. Otherwise, it'll be like the donkey and the carrot.
thank you for this suggestion, it's true that i am taking a goal oriented approach (the goal being the end of suffering) but i don't think this is a problem for me.
Hi there. Did the head unblock after this stage? It's not clear from your writing.
hi, the head doesn't unblock in terms of allowing the pleasure in, however - the tension can be relaxed, with some difficulty at 2nd/3rd and with ease at 4th.
You need to use this to see anatta, but obviously that isn't an absence you can just choose to see.
hm, so how does one go about seeing it? if this is similar to the dissociation techniques, and 'who hears this sound' type of inquiry, i don't think i am interested. it seems quite possible to 'penetrate' the 3 characteristics without ending sensual desire, ill will, desire for becoming, desire for non-becoming, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. i have always preferred the not-self as a "therapy to relinquish craving" theory (is that which is stressful rightly regarded as self?) rather than the penetrating the truth of no-self as an end in itself interpretation.
ohnofabrications
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by ohnofabrications »

Goofaholix wrote:I think you need to be in contact with a teacher skilled in navigating the jhanas, though your written description is quite thorough it will be difficult to get accurate feedback on a public forum like this, especially as most people probably do vipassana type practices.

I think it's pretty foolhardy to try and progress beyond first jhana without guidance from a teacher as it's easy to decceive oneself.
how would you suggest i am deceiving myself, or if you think that it is merely potential self-deception, what type of deception are you talking about?
do you mean that i would be deceiving myself about having attained the jhanas? (i haven't made a hard decision as to whether those were the jhanas, which is one of the reasons for my post)
do you mean that i would be actually entering into and making progress towards unskillful states? this seems quite unlikely, i am definitely moving away from sensuality and becoming, whatever else may be true about what i am doing. you seem to imply that i could wander into territory that would be somehow dangerous, but you don't explain what that danger is or how i could get so confused as to practice breath meditation and end up there.

what were the reasons for your over 1000 posts if you don't believe in the efficacy of this forum? (sorry i don't mean to offend, but i don't understand your point about the self-deception/danger i could be wandering into, if practicing with forum guidance is so dangerous than why participate?)

thanks
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Ben
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by Ben »

I second what Goof said.
You need to be practicing under the guidance of a teacher.
From your description it appears you are confusing mundane experiences as jhanas.
And goof is right with regards to receiving accurate feedback with regards to meditation and meditative experience on this, or any other forum. The reason being that very many are at different points along the path and interpret your experiences through the prism of their, perhaps, limited experience and knowledge. Its better you seek feedback and instruction from someone qualified to teach.
All the best,

Ben
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retrofuturist
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings ONF,

Welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

:buddha2:
thirdly, which should i focus on ending? the intuitive answer for me currently is the b. which brings me to my next question...
Your earlier answer of letting go, is correct.

"Ending" (cessation) is the stopping of the opposite of "letting go", namely the stopping of "taking up" (upadana), and the "letting go" of what was formerly taken up in the past to be "I" or "mine".

Unfortunately I cannot comment on your jhanic experiences, as jhana is (unfortunately) not a significant factor in my practice at this point in time.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Cafael Dust
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by Cafael Dust »

hi, the head doesn't unblock in terms of allowing the pleasure in, however - the tension can be relaxed, with some difficulty at 2nd/3rd and with ease at 4th.
hm, so how does one go about seeing it? if this is similar to the dissociation techniques, and 'who hears this sound' type of inquiry, i don't think i am interested. it seems quite possible to 'penetrate' the 3 characteristics without ending sensual desire, ill will, desire for becoming, desire for non-becoming, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance. i have always preferred the not-self as a "therapy to relinquish craving" theory (is that which is stressful rightly regarded as self?) rather than the penetrating the truth of no-self as an end in itself interpretation.
As Ben says, more experienced practitioners than I will be more helpful. I will however offer my thoughts, because I have some experience of what you are talking about.

Then again, my advice is just to keep following the breath. I also agree with Retrofuturist, and his post also explains what I mean by seeing anatta. The tension in the head may be related to this sense of ownership.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
ohnofabrications
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by ohnofabrications »

From your description it appears you are confusing mundane experiences as jhanas.
could you expand on this? it would seem sensible that if you were going to tell me that what i thought was jhana wasn't, you would also give me some explanation on why it isn't, what it is, and what to do... otherwise you are providing no insight and simply creating doubt.

how could simply telling someone they are practicing wrongly without any explanation be beneficial? you said that i should seek someone qualified to teach, implying that you aren't. but if that is the case then why are you telling me i am practicing incorrectly, telling me i am practicing incorrectly implies you know what practicing correctly is - but you're not telling me, simply enforcing a hinderance?

i really think you should consider whether your post was right speech.

if you tell someone they are doing something wrong i can think of only three reasons for doing so
1. (they are actually doing it wrong and you know how to help) you want to help them understand how to do it right
2. (they are doing it right) you want to make them stop doing it to hurt them
3. (whether or not they are doing it right is irrelevant) you want to imply that you know something they dont and create praise for yourself

you can't have been doing 1 as you made no attempt to help, i assume 3, investigate this, it is a cause of suffering.

i apologize, i guess i misunderstood what the intentions of this forum are. no one was willing to even begin to talk about actual meditation... what else is there in buddhism?
Cafael Dust
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by Cafael Dust »

Anger with a forum poster is such a pale thing when considered in the vast light of what you have trained to do.
Not twice, not three times, not once,
the wheel is turning.
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Goofaholix
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by Goofaholix »

ohnofabrications wrote: no one was willing to even begin to talk about actual meditation... what else is there in buddhism?
Quite a lot more than just meditation, and certainly a lot more than jhana.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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bodom
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by bodom »

ohnofabrications wrote:i apologize, i guess i misunderstood what the intentions of this forum are. no one was willing to even begin to talk about actual meditation...
Hi ohnofabrications

Im sorry I cannot offer any advice or feedback to you regarding your meditation practice as I live a busy life with two young children and have little time for meditation. The best I can do is recommend some books on jhana by highly regarded meditation teachers.

Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English
An Introductory Guide to Deeper States of Meditation

http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display ... n=&image=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Focused and Fearless
A Meditator’s Guide to States of Deep Joy, Calm, and Clarity

http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display ... ch&image=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond
A Meditator’s Handbook

http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display ... ch&image=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope you find them helpful .

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
ohnofabrications
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by ohnofabrications »

Cafael Dust wrote:Anger with a forum poster is such a pale thing (...)
true, the anger is not something i want to experience again, though i am sure i will. at the same time though, i would hope the forum poster in question would consider that his speech was far from beneficial. the logic i used that allowed me to post that is that it would be helpful to him to consider his speech. however it was motivated by ill will, and thus i shouldn't engage in it. a useful reminder in morality for me.
ohnofabrications
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by ohnofabrications »

bodom wrote:
ohnofabrications wrote:i apologize, i guess i misunderstood what the intentions of this forum are. no one was willing to even begin to talk about actual meditation...
Hi ohnofabrications

Im sorry I cannot offer any advice or feedback to you regarding your meditation practice as I live a busy life with two young children and have little time for meditation. The best I can do is recommend some books on jhana by highly regarded meditation teachers.

Beyond Mindfulness in Plain English
An Introductory Guide to Deeper States of Meditation

http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display ... n=&image=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Focused and Fearless
A Meditator’s Guide to States of Deep Joy, Calm, and Clarity

http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display ... ch&image=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Mindfulness, Bliss, and Beyond
A Meditator’s Handbook

http://www.wisdompubs.org/Pages/display ... ch&image=1" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I hope you find them helpful .

:anjali:
thank you for the suggestions. I have read the first and 3rd but not the second. i'll look into it.

also i suggest you try and make time for meditation, as obvious as it may seem remembering that the happiness that can be achieved through meditation is far greater than that achieved through any other means is important. i am not quite as entangled in the world as you are (you have children, i don't), so i can't fully sympathize, but there have always been moments in my practice in which i've realized that i was deluding myself when i thought that i was meditating as much as i could, there are very often ways to make time. also, a lack of on the cushion time means you should put in even more effort off the cushion.

thank you everyone for the responses, i should have checked out the rest of this forum more. i realize now that it is less
pragmatic and practice-oriented than i thought at first, good luck in your lives and practices.
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