my goals and ways of practice

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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tiltbillings
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by tiltbillings »

manas wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:The problem, however, with MP's complaint is that the OP was, indeed, given good advice and direct responses to his claims of "experience." The OP simply did not like what he/she heard. As pointed out forums such as this are not really conducive for talking about these things, especially when they are so highly idiosyncratic as the OP postings. There is no easy answer to this question discussing one's personal experiences in a public forum, but if one puts it out there, it is open for comment and the opinions are going to vary greatly. Quite frankly working with an experienced teacher is ideal, but in the mean time one's meditative experience, no matter how "profound," is just stuff of which to let go.
Many people, for reasons of physical distance but also personal issues, might not be able to gain direct access to a teacher.
Of course, and one comes on to a forum where there are a fair number of highly experienced, long term meditation practitioners, and one puts his/her experience out there and then does not like what he/she hears. What does that tell you?
Anyway, as MP was pointing out, we do seem to 'lose' some people rather quickly - they come here, feel uncomfortable in some way, then leave - and while I am also not blaming anyone here (I know people are trying to help), I just agree that there is room for improvement in how we handle such new people. (Maybe we need to brainstorm that issue, come up with some ideas?)...
Always room for improvement, but forums such as this, for very obvious reasons, are limited as to what they can provide in terms of advice concerning meditation practice, especially when something as highly idiosyncratic as the OP is presented.
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Ben
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by Ben »

ohnofabrications wrote:edit: ben - the reason i didn't appreciate your advice as compassionate and beneficial is that for me it wasn't.
I am sorry you didn't appreciate it.
ohnofabrications wrote:the teacher who's teachings i follow lives in California (thanissaro bhikkhu) and I live across the U.S. from him and I have nothing close to the financial means to go to California and talk with him in person.
That's great that you consider Ajahn Thanissaro your teacher. Just practice the instructions he teaches. If you cannot go and see him in person then I hope there is a means for you to communicate with him. I haven't seen my teacher face-to-face since 1990. Yet, I continue to practice what he teaches.
ohnofabrications wrote:I would visit with a local teacher, but it seems that alot of buddhism in the U.S. at least is focused on developing a equanimous 'watcher' of experience, one dissociated and apart from experience, what they teach simply does not lead to the end of suffering,
If you find no other method apart from Ajahn Thanissaro's teachings to your liking then continue to practice his methodology.
ohnofabrications wrote:i actually did go to one of these teachers once, but they taught me all they could teach (they were convinced that they taught the end of suffering, and that I had achieved it) but what so much of the teachings here teach is something far from the end of suffering.
I would caution you to take another person's diagnosis of your experience as evidentiary of jhana or one of the ariyan fruition states with a grain of salt. Unless the person knows you very well and the person making the diagnosis is very highly regarded - it maybe prone to error.
ohnofabrications wrote:edit2: ben you said:
practice diligently under their guidance and focus instead on walking the path rather than exotic experiences.
what exactly are you practicing if jhana does not qualify as being part of the path?
I didn't say jhana was not part of the path. My advice is to abandon the desire to attain this or that exotic experience and instead merely walk the path. We walk the path by continuous effort, everyday, by developing sila (five precepts), developing samadhi (concentration), and the development of panna (wisdom) and more precisely bhavana-maya-panna that arises from direct penetrative insight into the nature of nama and rupa. Experiences come and go, but the real benefit of walking the path is the positive change it makes to your life and those around you.

If you are focusing your meditative practice on samatha-bhavana - you need to think about why. Samatha-bhavana when developed to states of absorption can be extremely seductive and many people do get stuck there, believing that this or that jhanic experience is nibbana. Jhana can either be a tool for the rapid development of insight or a guilded prison. That is why some teachers focus on developing preliminary concentration before vipassana. Gaining proficiency and depth of experience with vipassana before developing the jhanas.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
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Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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ignobleone
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by ignobleone »

I don't mean to start (or continue) a what-is-jhana debate, I just want to address a few very important points regarding jhana validation which are forgotten or unnoticed by many but they are right there in the suttas.
The OP shouldn't think about 2nd jhana and above until s/he has attained the real 1st jhana. Based on what s/he has posted, we need more information before making any judgement.
These three points are for the 1st jhana to arise:
1. Kamasanna ceases: one doesn't perceive things based on the six sense doors respectively.
2. Vaci sankhara ceases. It can be described like this: normally when we perceive something, e.g. by means of our ears we hear a sound, then verbal fabrication arises in the form of inner conversation in our head such as: "a nice music!", "what a noisy truck!", etc. In the 1st jhana since the sensual perception ceases, verbal fabrication should ceases as well.
3. Pitisukha has to be born from the cessation/seclusion/withdrawal. Any pleasant sensation/feeling which arises prior to the cessations is not pitisukha.
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Cittasanto
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by Cittasanto »

manas wrote:I just agree that there is room for improvement in how we handle such new people. (Maybe we need to brainstorm that issue, come up with some ideas?)...
well here is one reason, for example this thread, who knows him?

The visudhimagga and the cannon show a personal connection with a teacher or those you are talking to is the preffered way, the OP's frustration now and in the past was based upon impatience to get to know people, in these situation the group is blind about the person, and no one knows them except for what they say (as in this case and others) with their introduction/first post.

I am not going to risk giving specific advise to someone I do not know in any way, particularly when they seam in a hurry.
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But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Goofaholix
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by Goofaholix »

Cittasanto wrote:The visudhimagga and the cannon show a personal connection with a teacher or those you are talking to is the preffered way, the OP's frustration now and in the past was based upon impatience to get to know people, in these situation the group is blind about the person, and no one knows them except for what they say (as in this case and others) with their introduction/first post.

I am not going to risk giving specific advise to someone I do not know in any way, particularly when they seam in a hurry.
You're right, it's the get in... get my spiritual attainments validated... and then get out type attitude that is sometimes obvious on the first post. Sure staying a while, making friends, and talking over and over about metaphysics etc is not everyone's cup of tea, and everyone tries to be helpful but we're not here to be used.
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manas
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by manas »

Hi Ben,
I cannot answer on behalf of the OP, but I do feel the need to respectfully respond to a few things you said
If you are focusing your meditative practice on samatha-bhavana - you need to think about why.
We could categorize the jhanas as 'samatha bhavana', but doing so might inadvertantly lead some persons to misconstrue jhana as just a means to calm & pacify the mind, when it is much more than just that. Plus it's 'limb number eight' of the Noble Path - why not practice it, if the Buddha has instructed us to?

In other words, maybe he is attempting to practice jhana because, simply, it is part of the Buddha's Path to enlightenment - just that.
Samatha-bhavana when developed to states of absorption can be extremely seductive and many people do get stuck there, believing that this or that jhanic experience is nibbana. Jhana can either be a tool for the rapid development of insight or a guilded prison.
I cannot see how jhana, if practiced in accordance with the Buddha's instructions, could be anything other than conducive to liberation. Where you would be correct is in cases of what Bhante Gunaratana calls 'wrong concentration' (as opposed to 'right concentration'). But then again, wrong concentration isn't jhana in any case, because the Buddha defines right concentration as the four jhanas.

On another note, I just noticed how patient you were in that answer (to the OP) - and in general on DW. I know this is a tad off-topic, but I wished to add it because in voicing some slight differences in perspective, I want it to be understood that they are voiced in goodwill alone.

with metta,

:anjali: .
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Ben
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by Ben »

manas wrote:I cannot see how jhana, if practiced in accordance with the Buddha's instructions, could be anything other than conducive to liberation.
Because the jhanas cannot take you to liberation. We can read the account of the Bodhisatta's noble search where he learns the 7th and 8th jhanas from his teachers Alara Kalama and Uddaka Ramaputta, masters the 7th and 8th jhanas and still finds it wanting in liberating one from samsara.

MN 26 Ariyapariyesana Sutta:
"I thought: 'Not only did Rama have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. I, too, have conviction, persistence, mindfulness, concentration, & discernment. What if I were to endeavor to realize for myself the Dhamma that Rama declared he entered & dwelled in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge.' So it was not long before I quickly entered & dwelled in that Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge. I went to Uddaka and said, 'Friend Uddaka, is this the extent to which Rama entered & dwelled in this Dhamma, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge?'

"'Yes, my friend...'

"'This, friend, is the extent to which I, too, have entered & dwell in this Dhamma, having realized it for myself through direct knowledge.'

"'It is a gain for us, my friend, a great gain for us, that we have such a companion in the holy life. So the Dhamma Rama declared he entered & dwelled in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge. And the Dhamma you declare you have entered & dwell in, having realized it for yourself through direct knowledge, is the Dhamma Rama declared he entered & dwelled in, having realized it for himself through direct knowledge. The Dhamma he knew is the Dhamma you know; the Dhamma you know is the Dhamma he knew. As he was, so are you; as you are, so was he. Come friend, lead this community.'

"In this way did Uddaka Ramaputta, my companion in the holy life, place me in the position of teacher and pay me great honor. But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding, but only to reappearance in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, I left.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

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Cittasanto
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by Cittasanto »

Goofaholix wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:The visudhimagga and the cannon show a personal connection with a teacher or those you are talking to is the preffered way, the OP's frustration now and in the past was based upon impatience to get to know people, in these situation the group is blind about the person, and no one knows them except for what they say (as in this case and others) with their introduction/first post.

I am not going to risk giving specific advise to someone I do not know in any way, particularly when they seam in a hurry.
You're right, it's the get in... get my spiritual attainments validated... and then get out type attitude that is sometimes obvious on the first post. Sure staying a while, making friends, and talking over and over about metaphysics etc is not everyone's cup of tea, and everyone tries to be helpful but we're not here to be used.
Just to clarify one point I think may be taken wrongly (underlined) in the post you are replying to (but not connected to what you have said) is I was refering to other previous new members who have come and gone.

but to respond to your reply Goof,
there are several basis of talk, sila being one and samadhi another of the 10 recommended, and then there is the sutta study section, providing offerings of what one thinks a particular text means, asking questions about it... there are several ways for new members to become familiar with the group here without going into metaphysical debate.
it is just a matter of providing the time to get to know people and in this situation with regard to this thread, I think it is incredibly unwise to act in any other way for no other reason than we can not have what is refereed to in the texts as cordial talk (seen in the texts when people didn't know each other,) other than the introduction and what they post.

sure in an ideal world everyone would have access to the perfect teacher for them, but this is not an ideal world, and we have to work with what we have.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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retrofuturist
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Ben wrote:Because the jhanas cannot take you to liberation.
In the absence of Right View, that is true. Jhana alone cannot take you to liberation.

Similarly, deep jhanas are not necessary for liberation and that sutta give examples of arahants who had varying levels of jhanic experience, the minimum (from memory) being the first jhana.

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by reflection »

Ohno,

Since you won't be reading this response anymore, all that's left for me is to wish you a lot of nice meditation once again in the hope that you might still read this.

Metta,
Reflection
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by reflection »

Modus.Ponens wrote:You're all very nice people, but I'm disapointed at this forum for these reasons: as the main Theravada forum on the web, our group should be able to give pratical advice on meditation. But every time anybody makes some claim of this or that attainment, they are looked on with suspicion instead of a healthy, grown-up analysis. When jhana is spoken as an experience, there's imediatly somebody begining a what-is-jhana debate. People with meditation experience, instead of welcome, are treated as unwelcome. We just lost another person who has meditation experience. And it's not the first.

This forum is good for theoretical discussions and learning buddhist tenets, but its weak point is discussion of practice, which is the most important part of buddhism. :?

:soap:
Well, the OP asked about his experiences of jhana, so he himself started the what-is-jhana debate. Myself, I can relate to his experiences, but simply not as jhana and I gave the advice I found most appropriate through my own experience and what I've learned from my teachers; just as others here did. If we don't agree, that's not suspicion or treating someone as unwelcome, that is an effort in trying to help.

But to quote ohno himself, I guess "Sometimes the beneficial things are far from what we'd like to hear."

With metta,
Reflection
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by ignobleone »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,
Ben wrote:Because the jhanas cannot take you to liberation.
In the absence of Right View, that is true. Jhana alone cannot take you to liberation.

Similarly, deep jhanas are not necessary for liberation and that sutta give examples of arahants who had varying levels of jhanic experience, the minimum (from memory) being the first jhana.

Metta,
Retro. :)
What is liberation according to your understanding?
Is there any relation between jhana and liberation? If there is, what is it?
Isn't it good for us to make sure we understand these two things?
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retrofuturist
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ignoble,

Liberation = cessation = nibbana = arahantship
Isn't it good for us to make sure we understand these two things?
Yes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
ignobleone
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by ignobleone »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Ignoble,

Liberation = cessation = nibbana = arahantship
Isn't it good for us to make sure we understand these two things?
Yes.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Hi Retro,
You haven't answered my 2nd question.
:)
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retrofuturist
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Re: my goals and ways of practice

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ignobleone,
ignobleone wrote:You haven't answered my 2nd question.
That's right, you can do your own investigations.

If you want some starting points... see what the Buddha said about jhana, samma-samadhi, the fetters broken at the different levels of nobility... and check out some of the old Dhamma Wheel discussions about what level of jhana is required as a minimum to achieve which noble-attainment.

Enjoy. :)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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