YOU CANNOT POST. OUR WEB HOSTING COMPANY DECIDED TO MOVE THE SERVER TO ANOTHER LOCATION. IN THE MEANTIME, YOU CAN VIEW THIS VERSION WHICH DOES NOT ALLOW POSTING AND WILL NOT SAVE ANYTHING YOU DO ONCE THE OTHER SERVER GOES ONLINE.

Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha) - Page 6 - Dhamma Wheel

Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby Sarva » Thu Apr 26, 2012 3:24 pm

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:04 pm

Hi sarva,

My own opinion is that form is not the same as the form aggregate.

See: SN 22.57

"This noble eightfold path is the way leading to the cessation of form;
that is, right view ... right concentration."

Regards, Vincent.

Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby Sarva » Thu Apr 26, 2012 4:33 pm

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Thu Apr 26, 2012 5:33 pm

Hi Sarva,

Quote: "Are the pali words different in each case, I don't know?"

The same word is used: form (rupa). It is the normal, everyday word for
what we would call, matter, physical stuff. The same word is also used
for any object seen with the eye.

The form aggregate is rupa-kkhandha, but mostly they do not use it, they
just talk about form, feeling and so on, so it is not always clear.

Sarva: "How do you understand 'the cessation of form'?"

That is what I am attempting to understand. Many passages speak of the
cessation of form, feeling and the rest. These make no sense if one reads
them in a literal way. If it is not actual form that ceases then "form"
must mean something else - but what?

Sarva: "For the Buddha cessation of form appears to be a question of knowledge rather than physical cessation:"

I am not sure what you mean here. For me, "direct knowledge of the cessation
of form", means direct knowledge of the complete and permanent cessation of
"something" - which is being pointed to by the word "form". That "something"
does not seem to be actual form (actual physical stuff).

I think they mean that the form aggregate ceases, and that this is not actual
form (not physical stuff). What then, is the form aggregate?

Regards, Vincent.

Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby Sarva » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:27 pm

Hi Vincent
I take form to be literal, the "elements". My body is form, a tree is form and water is form. What 'ceases' is the perception of form as having an inherent quality or self. The boundary of this form versus that form becomes minimalised. With the cessation of namarupa there is the cessation of craving this form or that form and ultimately this starves or ceases dukkha. Keeping in mind that the cessation of dukkha is all that Buddha taught, then I feel I would hold a wrong view to assume he is explaining a different realm with Unbinding. :smile:
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Thu Apr 26, 2012 6:51 pm

Hi Sarva,

Do you mean the four great elements?

SN 35.245 - Kimsuka Sutta - The Riddle Tree.

" A certain monk went to another monk and, on arrival, said to him, "To what extent, my friend, is a monk's vision said to be well-purified?"
---------------------
"When a monk discerns, as it actually is, the origination & passing away of the four great elements [earth, water, wind, & fire], my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified."
------------------------
"When a monk discerns, as it actually is, that whatever is subject to origination is all subject to cessation, my friend, it is to that extent that his vision is said to be well-purified." [ continued ]

Link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Regards, Vincent.

Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby Sarva » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:16 pm

hi Vincent
Yes, I am taking this definition of rupa:

Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

I consider Dependent Origination as key teaching.
Metta
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:19 pm


User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby mikenz66 » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:29 pm


vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Thu Apr 26, 2012 7:32 pm

Hi Sarva,

Could you clarify one point for me?

Does name-form cease completely and permanently, and if yes, then when
does this happen? Thanks.

Regards, Vincent.

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Thu Apr 26, 2012 9:14 pm

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:07 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:35 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 14947
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby mikenz66 » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:40 am


User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 27, 2012 1:45 am

Greetings Mike,

Plausible that contradictions are attributable to deviations attributable to oral transmission and variances in the different national canons etc.

That said, any contradictions (aside from obvious transcribing errors, as found in some Canons) I've encountered are only ever "apparent" contradictions, and deeper investigation reveals that they weren't actually contradictions in the first place - it was only the way they were regarded at the time.

I do not believe the Buddha himself taught anything contradictory and I believe the early arahants did an awesome job of maintaining and transmitting the Sutta Pitaka.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby Sarva » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:44 am

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

User avatar
retrofuturist
Site Admin
Posts: 17855
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby retrofuturist » Fri Apr 27, 2012 3:46 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby Sarva » Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:46 am

“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86

vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Fri Apr 27, 2012 8:04 am

Hi Retro,

Here are my thoughts on some of your earlier statements in this thread:

Retro said:
"We see here that the different aggregates are personally delineated, based on different experiential conditions. If aggregates need to be delineated to arise, then they cannot be said the exist, separate from and independently of, their delineation." [end quote]

This is interesting. I would explain it in a similar way:

We see that the aggregates are personally constructed. This is done mainly
by an accumulation of old habits. Present volitional activity is continually
creating more habits on top of the old ones. If the aggregates are constructed
in this way, then they "exist" only as an ongoing mental constructive activity.

The key questions are; What is the nature of the construction, and how can
this process be terminated?

Retro said:
"Aggregates are subjectively appropriated bundles, empty." [end quote]

This is good. I would put it this way;

Aggregates are an ongoing habitual process of subjective appropriation.

The appropriation takes place on two levels:

1. First level: Appropriation based on the conceit "I am" and "conceiving",
which constructs the five aggregates.

2. Second level: A stronger appropriation (clinging) based on the idea of
self, which constructs the five clinging aggregates.

These two constructions can be removed together, or the second can be
removed, to be followed later by the first.

Regards, Vincent.

vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)

Postby vinasp » Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:11 am

Hi everyone,

This interesting passage is found in SN 22.79

"And why do you call them 'fabrications'? Because they fabricate fabricated things, thus they are called 'fabrications.' What do they fabricate as a fabricated thing? For the sake of form-ness, they fabricate form as a fabricated thing. For the sake of feeling-ness, they fabricate feeling as a fabricated thing. For the sake of perception-hood... For the sake of fabrication-hood... For the sake of consciousness-hood, they fabricate consciousness as a fabricated thing. Because they fabricate fabricated things, they are called fabrications." [Thanissaro]

Link: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:

"And why, bhikkhus, do you call them volitional formations? 'They construct
the conditioned,' bhikkhus, therefore they are called volitional
formations. And what is the conditioned that they construct? They
construct conditioned form as form; they construct conditioned feeling
as feeling; they construct conditioned perception as perception; they
construct conditioned volitional formations as volitional formations;
they construct conditioned consciousness as consciousness. 'They
construct the conditioned,' bhikkhus, therefore they are called
volitional formations." [ BB CD page 915, part of SN 22.79]

They construct the aggregates?

Regards, Vincent.


Return to “General Theravāda discussion”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Kim OHara and 65 guests

Google Saffron, Theravada Search Engine