A Discussion of Western Buddhist Monasticism

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Justsit
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Re: A Discussion of Western Buddhist Monasticism

Post by Justsit »

Sounds like 1968. :group:
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Polar Bear
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Re: A Discussion of Western Buddhist Monasticism

Post by Polar Bear »

deleted for ridiculousness
Last edited by Polar Bear on Sun Sep 13, 2015 7:02 am, edited 1 time in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Cittasanto
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Re: A Discussion of Western Buddhist Monasticism

Post by Cittasanto »

polarbuddha101 wrote: I stand corrected, monks shouldn't be striving for lay peoples favor, but by the way, monks are hobos, they just don't smoke crack or have schizophrenia. At least they are supposed to be, it is called "going forth into homelessness". Traditionally, monks spent a lot of time living in the woods, abandoned huts, fields, and gardens; at least from what I've read so far in the suttas. Obviously, being a hobo back then was different since it was considered noble (if you did it for spiritual reasons). And yeah, nowadays alot of monks live in monasteries all the time, but there are still countries where monks can basically wander wherever (into the forest, a good cave, different villages) and my suggestion was just an unlikely way that I figured american sentiments towards bald people in orange robes could be circumnavigated. I mean, why cling to traditions like orange robes if it means you can't travel freely or that you're gonna get shot with a shotgun for looking outta place. And this isn't my opinion, its just a thought that popped in my head, I just think it would be great if eventually monks in America had the same freedom to travel that monks have in southeast asia.

I hope this isn't misconstrued as argumentative, and you I'm sure you know all the things i just said about monks, I'm just brainstorming
A Bhikkhu is not a migratory worker, they have relinquished the home life, i.e. the responsibilities that go with the home, they havn't become wandering workers, which is a hobo btw. you seam to be thinking of the vagabond, a traveler.
They actually would of built a simple hut, or one would of been made for them, the robes distinguish them from any old homeless person, it is a banner of the arahants, and their ability to travel is not defined by the wearing of robes as far as I can see, they are afforded the same travel rights anyone else is.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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tesator12
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Re: A Discussion of Western Buddhist Monasticism

Post by tesator12 »

:namaste:
Last edited by tesator12 on Sat May 26, 2012 8:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SDC
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Re: A Discussion of Western Buddhist Monasticism

Post by SDC »

polarbuddha, I somewhat agree with your overall point (minus the working and hair growing), and I think it would be nice to have a respected wandering tradition here in the US. Although we have a massive amount of wanderers in the US, it is not considered a respectable lifestyle choice and they are all seen as bums for the most part. Being a very materialistically driven nation, it is difficult for many to embrace the idea of someone that doesn’t want to participate. So the wanderer has no place, let alone a Buddhist wanderer.

And as far as robes go, I would not want to see that tradition ever go away. I have seen monks in the colder parts of N. America wear sweatpants and sweatshirts under their robes, which may be something you would be more comfortable with.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Polar Bear
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Re: A Discussion of Western Buddhist Monasticism

Post by Polar Bear »

A Bhikkhu is not a migratory worker, they have relinquished the home life, i.e. the responsibilities that go with the home, they havn't become wandering workers, which is a hobo btw. you seam to be thinking of the vagabond, a traveler.
They actually would of built a simple hut, or one would of been made for them, the robes distinguish them from any old homeless person, it is a banner of the arahants, and their ability to travel is not defined by the wearing of robes as far as I can see, they are afforded the same travel rights anyone else is.[/quote]




I don't see how living in a tarp and going to soup kitchens is somehow drastically different than living in a hut and walking to people's homes or businesses for alms. It's all about the attitude. The main point is renunciation and how to do it in america where wouldn't be forced to stay in one small geographical location due to the current status quo

so what do you think is the best option

:?: .
Last edited by Polar Bear on Sat Apr 28, 2012 7:37 am, edited 2 times in total.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Cittasanto
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Re: A Discussion of Western Buddhist Monasticism

Post by Cittasanto »

polarbuddha101 wrote: I don't see how living in a tarp and going to soup kitchens is somehow drastically different than living in a hut and walking to people's homes or businesses for alms. It's all about the attitude. The main point is renunciation and how to do it in america where wouldn't be forced to stay in one small geographical location due to the current status quo

so what do you think is the best option

:?: .
The aspect you are focusing on is the only similarity! the big difference is why they are doing it, it is the intention. the attitude has little to do with it. the monks are not suppose to ask for things except in certain circumstances,
the monks operate on invitations to set up a monastery in the west, and in the east if there is an invite and enough support within the local community to support them materially with the four requisites, they go, this is how monasteries Ajahn Sumedho founded and their branches including Abhayagiri came to exist. The monks are free to travel on tudong if they wish, there is no restriction except that imposed by the vinaya, so I am not sure of what status quo you are referring to? there are enough monasteries in the US, UK and Europe for monks to travel around if they so wished.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Polar Bear
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Re: A Discussion of Western Buddhist Monasticism

Post by Polar Bear »

alright,
Cittasanto wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote: I don't see how living in a tarp and going to soup kitchens is somehow drastically different than living in a hut and walking to people's homes or businesses for alms. It's all about the attitude. The main point is renunciation and how to do it in america where wouldn't be forced to stay in one small geographical location due to the current status quo

so what do you think is the best option

:?: .
The aspect you are focusing on is the only similarity! the big difference is why they are doing it, it is the intention. the attitude has little to do with it. the monks are not suppose to ask for things except in certain circumstances,
the monks operate on invitations to set up a monastery in the west, and in the east if there is an invite and enough support within the local community to support them materially with the four requisites, they go, this is how monasteries Ajahn Sumedho founded and their branches including Abhayagiri came to exist. The monks are free to travel on tudong if they wish, there is no restriction except that imposed by the vinaya, so I am not sure of what status quo you are referring to? there are enough monasteries in the US, UK and Europe for monks to travel around if they so wished.

(i meant intention by attitude by the way) alright, well everything i've said earlier i guess just violates the principles of true renunciation so I'll stop making statements and just ask questions

so, will america ever be capable of supporting lone forest monks or a class of wandering monks? or do we already have that? or can we already do that and monks just don't?

by class i mean that becoming a wandering monk would a viable option for any monk that wanted to do that. I'm sure there are a few traveling monks in america giving meditation lessons and whathaveyou but not to a great extent
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
PTa
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Re: A Discussion of Western Buddhist Monasticism

Post by PTa »

nn
Last edited by PTa on Fri May 04, 2012 10:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"No matter how much we may speak in line with what we understand to be right in accordance with the Dhamma, if the citta that is acting isn't right, how can we be right?"
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Cittasanto
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Re: A Discussion of Western Buddhist Monasticism

Post by Cittasanto »

polarbuddha101 wrote:

(i meant intention by attitude by the way) alright, well everything i've said earlier i guess just violates the principles of true renunciation so I'll stop making statements and just ask questions

so, will america ever be capable of supporting lone forest monks or a class of wandering monks? or do we already have that? or can we already do that and monks just don't?

by class i mean that becoming a wandering monk would a viable option for any monk that wanted to do that. I'm sure there are a few traveling monks in america giving meditation lessons and whathaveyou but not to a great extent
I can only work with what you say, not what you mean but do not say!

it is fully capable now, and bhikkhus do do it, the fact that there are not more is due to the monks not doing it more. I do not know if there are monks who go off for any period for tudong in the US regularly but there are monks in europe who do. Ajahn Sucitto is quite famous for it, and spent 3 month out and about only a couple of years ago, and a number of mendicants went on Tudong during my time at Amaravati. Ajahn Amaro (former Co-Abott of Abhiyagiri) has a book of his Tudong trip called Long road North, and a former Bhikkhu has published a book called blistered feet, blisful mind.
I can not see any issue for those who want to do it who are over 5 vassa to do it except for their inclination to go and do it.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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