Letting observation choose its focus

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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retrofuturist
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Re: Letting observation choose its focus

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Sam,
SamKR wrote:This does seem to be in parallel with the method I follow.
:thumbsup:
SamKR wrote:By the way, the word "remembrance" in the above quote seems somewhat odd. Is the the usual translation for sati?
Ah, the subject of many debates... see here...

Pali Term: Sati
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=23&t=4299" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Letting observation choose its focus

Post by mikenz66 »

DarwidHalim wrote:What I mean is you just aware.
...
Once you are used to it, you can start the meditation without focusing on breathing anymore.
My experience is that I can do this after a couple of days on retreat, once the mind-chatter has calmed down and mindfulness and concentration has built up a bit. At that stage there is less need to have an "anchor" like the breath/abdominal motion/motion of the feet/ or whatever. Whatever arises the mind can "lock onto".

I do find I need to be a little careful at this stage not to get lazy and just drift off in a pleasant state...
retrofuturist wrote:
"And how does a monk remain focused on feelings in & of themselves? There is the case where a monk, when feeling a painful feeling, discerns, 'I am feeling a painful feeling.' When feeling a pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling.' When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, he discerns, 'I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.'

"When feeling a painful feeling of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a painful feeling of the flesh.' When feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a painful feeling not of the flesh.' When feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling of the flesh.' When feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a pleasant feeling not of the flesh.' When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling of the flesh.' When feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh, he discerns, 'I am feeling a neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling not of the flesh.'

"In this way he remains focused internally on feelings in & of themselves, or externally on feelings in & of themselves, or both internally & externally on feelings in & of themselves. Or he remains focused on the phenomenon of origination with regard to feelings, on the phenomenon of passing away with regard to feelings, or on the phenomenon of origination & passing away with regard to feelings. Or his mindfulness that 'There are feelings' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves.
... I would regard these four differently coloured sections as progressively more advanced means of "remain[ing] focused on feelings in & of themselves". In that regards, they are a progressive advancement of four steps, parallel to the Buddha's sixteen steps on anapanasati. Here they constitute:

1. The initial awareness of x
2. The deconstruction of x into constituent components (i.e. analysis of the parts)
3. The removal of the support underpinning the constituent components
4. The conscious non-appropriation of x
A common alternative interpretation of:
Or his mindfulness that 'There are feelings' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance.
Is that it describes just keeping enough attention on feelings/or whatever/ to maintain a good level of mindfulness. Related to what I commented above on Darwid's comment, once one has the mind a little calmed, mindful, and concentrated, that level can be maintained by keeping up a certain amount of attention --- it's not so necessary to be ferreting out all of the details. This is useful when one is having to do various activities and cannot devote full attention to all the details.

:anjali:
Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: Letting observation choose its focus

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:Is that it describes just keeping enough attention on feelings/or whatever/ to maintain a good level of mindfulness. Related to what I commented above on Darwid's comment, once one has the mind a little calmed, mindful, and concentrated, that level can be maintained by keeping up a certain amount of attention --- it's not so necessary to be ferreting out all of the details. This is useful when one is having to do various activities and cannot devote full attention to all the details.
:thumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Alex123
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Re: Letting observation choose its focus

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,

Satipatthana sutta does not seem to tell "you have to deliberately focus only on this first, then focus on 2nd, then on 3rd, etc" .

At every normal waking conscious moment in our daily life one can be aware of all five aggregates and all four satipatthanas. It depends more on depth and breadth of awareness to know which satipatthana one will be aware of. I believe in developing "panoramic view" where one can see more, not less, of what is happening including impermanence. By seeing impermanence one can see anatta as well. I understand that when you naturally let bare observation to happen, anatta is seen better. There is no feeling of "self choosing something".

When for example it says:
  • when walking, the monk discerns, 'I am walking.' When standing, he discerns, 'I am standing.' When sitting, he discerns, 'I am sitting.' When lying down, he discerns, 'I am lying down.' Or however his body is disposed, that is how he discerns it.MN10
Unless one is paraplegic, one will have to change postures regardless if one wants to or not. Personal effort is not required to change postures.
The sutta doesn't tell us that one should deliberately take this or that posture. Naturally the human body will have to take them. And when you are aware of posture that the body is in, you are also aware of the body (kāya) through feelings (vedanā), perception (saññā) and consciousness (viññāṇa). Also when there is deeper mindfulness, one can see one's reaction (saṅkhārā) toward the bodily position that one is in. So all four frames of reference can be noticed when one pays full attention to taking postures and minor bodily movements as well. One just needs to develop the depth and breadth awareness.

When one is continuously mindful without a break, seeing state after state after state occur, one will notice the impermanence. From seeing impermanence, anatta can be seen.
  • "He should develop the perception of inconstancy so as to uproot the conceit, 'I am.' For a monk perceiving inconstancy, the perception of not-self is made firm. One perceiving not-self attains the uprooting of the conceit, 'I am' — Unbinding in the here and now." Ud4.1
SamKR
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Re: Letting observation choose its focus

Post by SamKR »

mikenz66 wrote:Is that it describes just keeping enough attention on feelings/or whatever/ to maintain a good level of mindfulness. Related to what I commented above on Darwid's comment, once one has the mind a little calmed, mindful, and concentrated, that level can be maintained by keeping up a certain amount of attention --- it's not so necessary to be ferreting out all of the details. This is useful when one is having to do various activities and cannot devote full attention to all the details.
To me this:
Or his mindfulness that 'There are feelings' is maintained to the extent of knowledge & remembrance. And he remains independent, unsustained by (not clinging to) anything in the world. This is how a monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves.
seems to be similar instruction as this:
"[...]In reference to the seen, there will be only the seen. In reference to the heard, only the heard. In reference to the sensed, only the sensed. In reference to the cognized, only the cognized. That is how you should train yourself. When for you there will be only the seen in reference to the seen, only the heard in reference to the heard, only the sensed in reference to the sensed, only the cognized in reference to the cognized, then, Bahiya, there is no you in terms of that. When there is no you in terms of that, there is no you there. When there is no you there, you are neither here nor yonder nor between the two. This, just this, is the end of stress."
And the latter instruction (quintessence of Buddha's meditative teachings?) is targeted for advanced meditator like Bahiya. So, for the beginners that could be too advanced thing to do. Instead they could focus on the other three steps of the " progressively more advanced means" (retro's words) until they reach the fourth.
(I still don't think that "remembrance" is the correct translation there. It must be "awareness". Just my opinion, and not being an expert I could be very wrong.)
Last edited by SamKR on Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:08 am, edited 1 time in total.
SamKR
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Re: Letting observation choose its focus

Post by SamKR »

Alex123 wrote:Hello all,

Satipatthana sutta does not seem to tell "you have to deliberately focus only on this first, then focus on 2nd, then on 3rd, etc" .
Yes, it does not seem to tell that but it also does not prohibit this, and there seems to be no harm in doing it one by one if one finds that works for him/her. To me Satipatthana sutta seems to incorporate teachings for all kinds of people (beginner to the more advanced), and retro's four-point satipatthana model ("progressively more advanced means") seems valid.
But I agree with your argument too; however, I think that will apply easily for people who are at that level. Also Thanks for the quote about impermanence.
Last edited by SamKR on Sat Apr 28, 2012 3:10 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Letting observation choose its focus

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Sam,

Sure, these Suttas are interpreted in various ways by various teachers and practitioners. I think that the key thing is how it relates to your experience and what use you can make of it. I explained how that passage resonates with my experience.

:anjali:
Mike
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Re: Letting observation choose its focus

Post by SamKR »

mikenz66 wrote:Hi Sam,

Sure, these Suttas are interpreted in various ways by various teachers and practitioners. I think that the key thing is how it relates to your experience and what use you can make of it. I explained how that passage resonates with my experience.

:anjali:
Mike
Hello Mike,

Thanks for your replies. I think I understand your point. I agree that "the key thing is how it relates to our experience and what use you can make of it." Well said.
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Re: Letting observation choose its focus

Post by mikenz66 »

And, thinking about it, what I'm talking about doesn't necessarily contradict what you are saying, since the ability to be "just aware that something is happening" could be described as a "somewhat advanced" practice which requires some work to get to.

:anjali:
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Re: Letting observation choose its focus

Post by Alex123 »

mikenz66 wrote:And, thinking about it, what I'm talking about doesn't necessarily contradict what you are saying, since the ability to be "just aware that something is happening" could be described as a "somewhat advanced" practice which requires some work to get to.
:anjali:
Mike
Hello Mike, yes to be just aware without focusing is very advanced. No wonder that in other schools of Buddhism it is part of most advanced in their practices.

But I believe that this "no-control" is very helpful because you are not trying to interfere which often can be merely lobha or dosa, and in my experience it has shown anatta better (though I have a long way to go). Yes it is more subtle practice and some know-how might be needed.

Focusing on one thing to the exclusion of others is good for samatha (which can be needed in some circumstances), but hinders vipassanā which needs to see cause-effect relationship (which requires seeing two or more things at once).
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