This question comes out of some recent discussions here and elsewhere. I know the topic's a bit heavy so bear with me..
The standard Buddhist argument against suicide is, basically, that suicide is impossible. If one tries to annihilate oneself through such a "short-cut" method, the result will simply be renewed existence, and probably an unpleasant one at that.
Suppose, though, that there is no rebirth. Following the overall Buddhist perspective on things, would suicide be a desirable and logical choice?
After all, isn't the goal cessation of the aggregates? And if suicide actually worked, wouldn't cessation of the aggregates occur? We are encouraged to cultivate zeal and desire in pursuit of the goal -- so were one to become convinced that there is no rebirth, what would be a reason for sticking around?
Besides fear of rebirth, are there any other good arguments (from a Theravada Buddhist perspective) against suicide?
I can think of a few possibilities: 1) desire not to harm others through an action that might cause suffering, 2) it violates the precepts, 3) the path involves realizations and fruits along the way to nibbana (jhanas for example), which would not be obtainable through the "short cut", 4) the Buddhist path involves gnosis and the same cannot be said of annihilation through a sudden act, and 5) nibbana is not annihilation. Not sure whether these arguments stack up.
Your thoughts?
Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Suicide generates a ton of suffering for many people. My grandfather killed himself ten years before I was born and it still created suffering in my life.Lazy_eye wrote:Besides fear of rebirth, are there any other good arguments (from a Theravada Buddhist perspective) against suicide?
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Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Greetings Lazy,
- The standard precept not to kill
- The Vinaya precept for monks not to recommend or suggest suicide
Metta,
Retro.![Smile :)](./images/smilies/icon_e_smile.gif)
The following come to mind...Lazy_eye wrote:Besides fear of rebirth, are there any other good arguments (from a Theravada Buddhist perspective) against suicide?
- The standard precept not to kill
- The Vinaya precept for monks not to recommend or suggest suicide
Metta,
Retro.
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Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Because it is craving for non-becoming in an extreme way.
Of course the hurt done to others is also a big thing to consider.
Of course the hurt done to others is also a big thing to consider.
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Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Buddha taught of a middle path; if one follows Buddha one won't commit suicide; despite sufferings he did not teach or allow one to commit suicide.
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Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
For the agnostic: it's not a sure bet, while continued practice here and now is.
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"And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
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Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Good point there...daverupa wrote:For the agnostic: it's not a sure bet, while continued practice here and now is.
Thanks to all for your responses.
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Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Hi Lazy_Eye
It's such a big 'what if' (ie 'what if there is no next existence, dependent on our previous kamma?) and the stakes are so high, that I would never take the risk. However, even if I were not a Buddhist - I still could not hurt my kids and (surviving) parent like that. Not to mention my brother and sister, and my spiritual guides and mentors. So even if I was somehow convinced that there were no existence after death, and if my life was unbearable, I would still not do it - I would just do whatever (non-lethal means) it took to ease the pain instead, and wait it out.
metta
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It's such a big 'what if' (ie 'what if there is no next existence, dependent on our previous kamma?) and the stakes are so high, that I would never take the risk. However, even if I were not a Buddhist - I still could not hurt my kids and (surviving) parent like that. Not to mention my brother and sister, and my spiritual guides and mentors. So even if I was somehow convinced that there were no existence after death, and if my life was unbearable, I would still not do it - I would just do whatever (non-lethal means) it took to ease the pain instead, and wait it out.
metta
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Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
This is why both annhilism and eternalism are wrong view according to the Buddha, both views lead to these kinds of conundrums and neither do anything in service of the main point of the Buddhas teaching the cessation of Dukkha.
Is Dukkha really this bad for you? If so I suppose best to get it over with then, if not then embrace the uncertainties in life and learn to not be controlled by Dukkha.
Is Dukkha really this bad for you? If so I suppose best to get it over with then, if not then embrace the uncertainties in life and learn to not be controlled by Dukkha.
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“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
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Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Hi LazyEye,Your thoughts?
Whatever one believes in terms of rebirth, suicide would not only cause suffering for oneself and others, but would be killing a chance for enlightement in this life that we're living here and now. To me its this life that's important for potential freedom from dukkha, not some woolly idea about the future.
kind regards
Aloka
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
But herein lies the problem. Enlightenment=cessation of the aggregates. The Buddha compared it to a flame being snuffed out.Aloka wrote:Suicide...would be killing a chance for enlightement in this life that we're living here and now.
So why wait? If there is no rebirth, then if someone dies right now, he/she has for all practical purposes achieved "enlightenment in this life that we're living here and now". That person has gained complete freedom from dukkha in all its forms.
I know this topic is not easy to discuss dispassionately and I don't mean to stir anyone up. It's an aspect of Buddhist teaching which I am trying to clarify for myself as I venture further into study and practice. The standard answer, as I mentioned above, is that suicide wouldn't actually achieve cessation; rather, it would lead to renewed existence, complete with some bad vipaka as a result of wrong views and an act of violence.
What I'm wondering is what other answers might be put forward from a Theravada point of view. I'm finding the responses in this thread helpful in untangling the question.
If i had a friend who was considering suicide and asked me why, from a Buddhist point of view, he or she shouldn't do this, I'm not sure how I could respond other than by asserting the possibility of rebirth. Assuming the person knew something about Dhamma, they could easily point out that existence is dukkha and cessation the ultimate goal of Buddhist practice. So I don't know what other kinds of skillful responses there might be.
Last edited by Lazy_eye on Fri Apr 27, 2012 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
I'm sorry but that seems to be a completely illogical statement to me. How can someone dying mean that they've achieved enlightenment? Enlightenment is for the living not the dead.So why wait? If there is no rebirth, then if someone dies right now, he/she has for all practical purposes achieved "enlightenment in this life that we're living here and now".
with kind wishes
A.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
If enlightenment means cessation of the aggregates, who or what is left to experience it? Consciousness is one of the aggregates. So by definition nibbana without remainder -- that is, complete cessation of the aggregates -- means there is no one left to have cognitions or experiences.Aloka wrote: I'm sorry but that seems to be a completely illogical statement to me. How can someone dying mean that they've achieved enlightenment? Enlightenment is for the living not the dead.
There's a natural temptation to think of nibbana as a state of being. My understanding, though, is that it is better seen as the process of letting go, carried to its culmination.
Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
That's a really difficult question. If it were someone that was actually contemplating suicide then i would be encouraging them to, or getting them, some immediate professional help.Lazy_eye wrote:What I'm wondering is what other answers might be put forward from a Theravada point of view.
If it was the subject of a dispassionate academic discussion then I would argue that the path should be one that leads one from suffering to liberation and that walking on the path is not only good for oneself but for others as well. I can only imagine that the last mindstate of someone who is so acutely depressed that they see the only way out of their situation is by killing themselves as anything but intense misery. As others have rightly pointed out suicide visits unspeakable harm on those closest to oneself.
kind regards,
Ben
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Learn this from the waters:
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loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
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Re: Buddhism, rebirth and suicide
Greetings Lazy,
Should you have a bit of time to review it, there was an interesting discussion here...
Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12178" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
... that digs deep into precisely what the aggregates are and aren't.
But none of that is likely to benefit your friend.
Metta,
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I think this is one of those wrongly framed questions.Lazy_eye wrote:If enlightenment means cessation of the aggregates, who or what is left to experience it?
Should you have a bit of time to review it, there was an interesting discussion here...
Five aggregates of appropriation (upādānakkhandha)
http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12178" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
... that digs deep into precisely what the aggregates are and aren't.
But none of that is likely to benefit your friend.
Metta,
Retro.
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"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."