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Commentaries, jhana, vipassana - Dhamma Wheel

Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
MMK23
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Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby MMK23 » Mon May 18, 2009 5:49 am

Last edited by MMK23 on Mon May 18, 2009 7:14 am, edited 1 time in total.

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retrofuturist
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 18, 2009 6:07 am

Greetings MMK,

I'm not entirely sure either... perhaps it is related to the vipassana-nanas?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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cooran
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby cooran » Mon May 18, 2009 6:13 am

Hello MMK23,

Might help to give the original link, so we could all have a look?

metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby MMK23 » Mon May 18, 2009 7:14 am

Thanks retrofuturist and Chris, I've added the link to John's article :-)

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kc2dpt
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby kc2dpt » Mon May 18, 2009 2:18 pm

The assumption in that quote seems to be that commentators not only didn't personally have "sufficient meditative experience to write with authority on the subject" but also didn't know anyone else who did, that they didn't consult with anyone. That seems to me highly unlikely.
- Peter


MMK23
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby MMK23 » Mon May 18, 2009 3:12 pm


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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby Jechbi » Mon May 18, 2009 6:09 pm


MMK23
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby MMK23 » Fri May 22, 2009 5:42 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby retrofuturist » Fri May 22, 2009 6:51 am

Greetings,

Upon MMK's invitation to further discuss the commentaries, I have little to say other than that they are treatises that have been prepared by people who are very scholarly and/or accomplished as practitioners. I don't care to suggest what that balance is. Like other people who are very scholarly and/or accomplished as practitioners, they are certainly worth listening to and may shed some excellent insight into meditation techniques and the Dhamma.

My only concern about the commentaries is not the commentaries themselves but the oft encountered perspective that the commentaries are more definitive than the suttas themselves. Venerable Dhammanando has provided a statement from the commentaries themselves that states that the Tipitaka should be the top rung of authority (personally I would split that as 1 - Sutta/Vinaya, 2 - Abhidhamma... but I digress), with commentaries coming next and then followed by subsequent lower links in the chain. If commentarial enthusiasts actually followed the frameworks established by their esteemed commentators, they would not allow the commentarial perspectives to in any way obscure what is embodied in the suttas. In the majority of circumstances, the commentaries provide addition detail, but they can obscure what is embodied in the suttas by... 1) subtly missing the point, and thereby missing the mark with their interpretation, 2) placing undue emphasis on certain aspects whilst skipping over other more pertinent points, 3) occasionally stating things which are inconsistent with the suttas.

The commentaries are good, are not infallable and are most beneficial when people are clear on how to relate them to the suttas... where do they fit with respect to each other? How do you best combine them for the best results? Presumably that's what John Bullitt wanted to explore in his article.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

MMK23
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby MMK23 » Fri May 22, 2009 7:36 am


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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby Jechbi » Sun May 24, 2009 6:49 pm


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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 26, 2009 5:39 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

MMK23
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby MMK23 » Tue May 26, 2009 8:02 am


MMK23
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby MMK23 » Tue May 26, 2009 8:10 am


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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 26, 2009 8:32 am

Greetings MMK23,

I'd rather not attempt to twist your understanding to match mine. No two people see the Pali literature alike.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

MMK23
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby MMK23 » Tue May 26, 2009 8:49 am


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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby Jechbi » Tue May 26, 2009 10:03 am


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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby kc2dpt » Tue May 26, 2009 2:12 pm

- Peter


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retrofuturist
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby retrofuturist » Tue May 26, 2009 10:42 pm

Greetings Peter,

Have no doubt, I could give examples.

However, I don't maintain a running log of "everything the commentaries have said that doesn't seem absolutely right". I don't have the kind of aversion towards them that would lead one to create such a list of perceived faults, simply for the purpose of discrediting them in discussion. Thus, I gave some general "rule of thumbs" principles by which people can investigate them for themselves... some potential frames of reference, if you will.

If anyone wants to present a passage or something specific then I'm happy to discuss. However, my reticence for speaking in specifics to date is out of respect towards the greater Pali tradition, an acknowledgement of my own limitations, and a disinclination against academic argument for academic sakes. Unless there is a practical basis or application for the discussion, it risks being idle chatter.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Nibbida
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Re: Commentaries, jhana, vipassana

Postby Nibbida » Wed May 27, 2009 2:57 am

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