Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Post by Sarva »

ground wrote:
Sarva wrote:I had to continually keep in mind that I was not looking for an experience which renders us inoperable or comatose, we are all seeking the insight to end suffering and the cause of suffering only. Whilst I have a body I still must feed it and interact with a complicated world.
Or to phrase it differently: When suffering has ceased there has to be a "mode of operation" in the context of the aggregates' self-presentation as "(complicated) world" having ceased.
Sarva wrote: By name and form I understand it is the way we see the world around us.
Or to phrase it differently: By the arising of 'name and form' (feeling, perception, volition, contact, attention & form) the arising of "the world" may be understood.
Sarva wrote: Through anicca we can see that no object or any event has permanence, it arises and passes away. Keep a focus on how things end or cease, as this is ‘letting go’ and helps to remove any current ongoing clinging or aversion.
Or to phrase it differently: Through anicca the continuous arising and passing away of the aggregates(' display) can be seen, a continuous arising and passing away that is beyond control by a conceived self.

Kind regards
Great! Thanks Ground, the rewording appears to me as a right view. Should this view be cultivated, reinforced through mindfulness, in your opinion?

metta
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Post by vinasp »

Hi Sarva,

Thanks for setting out your present understanding. The least that I can
do in return is to offer mine. I hope that it may be of some help to you.

[ Please note that this is my own interpretation, and differs from the
traditional understanding of the Nikaya teachings.]

Part 1.

Those who understand the DO formula as depicting rebirth usually follow
the "three lives" interpretation. They ignore the cessation of the links.

In such an interpretation, "form" can be ones actual body, and "name" can
be ones actual mental-functions (apart from consciousness) such as: feeling,
perception and volition. So consciousness and "name-form" together can be
understood as a person. The first two links, ignorance and volitional
formations, if they are included in the formula, represent the previous
life. The Mahanidana Sutta [DN 15] gives strong support to this sort of
interpretation.

There is no doubt that the teachings are meant to be understood in this
way, so such an understanding must be said to be correct.

However, if one focuses on the cessation of the links, then one is forced
to interpret many of the links in a different way. The "form" cannot be
ones actual body, the "name" cannot be actual mental-functions and the
"consciousness" cannot be ones actual consciousness.

In this way, the DO formula, and the rest of the teachings, support two
entirely different interpretations.

In my own studies, up to now, I have concentrated on the last eight links.
I believe that these can all cease - as a group - leaving the first four
links remaining. When these eight links have ceased what has been removed?

The "six-spheres", contact, feeling, Craving, clinging, the apparent
existence of a self and of course, suffering. I believe that the five
aggregates of clinging have also ceased. Also, some links may represent
particular wrong views, so these would be understood as having ceased.

So the first four links can probably be understood as the five aggregates.
The last eight links together are the "second-stage" of mental construction,
based on the belief that self is real. The first four links are the "first
stage" based on taking "I am" to be real. The words "conceit" and "conceiving"
are used to describe this first stage.

In the Five Nikaya's there are two teachings, the first ( probably earliest)
instructs monks to remove the view of self and the conceit "I am" together.
The second (later?) teaching is in two parts, the first instructs the monks
to remove the view of self, and the second part instructs on the removal of
the conceit "I am".

Part 2 to follow.

Regards, Vincent.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Post by Nyana »

vinasp wrote: Those who understand the DO formula as depicting rebirth usually follow
the "three lives" interpretation. They ignore the cessation of the links.
Who is this "they" whom ignore the cessation of the links?
vinasp wrote: In such an interpretation, "form" can be ones actual body, and "name" can
be ones actual mental-functions (apart from consciousness) such as: feeling,
perception and volition. So consciousness and "name-form" together can be
understood as a person. The first two links, ignorance and volitional
formations, if they are included in the formula, represent the previous
life. The Mahanidana Sutta [DN 15] gives strong support to this sort of
interpretation.

There is no doubt that the teachings are meant to be understood in this
way, so such an understanding must be said to be correct.

However, if one focuses on the cessation of the links, then one is forced
to interpret many of the links in a different way. The "form" cannot be
ones actual body, the "name" cannot be actual mental-functions and the
"consciousness" cannot be ones actual consciousness.
Of course it can, and it does. When one attains the fruition of stream-entry then any aggregates, sense spheres, and dhātus (consciousness, name & form), etc. which would arise in the future for a worldling are completely terminated and cease forever. When one attains the fruition of a once-returner then any aggregates (consciousness, name & form), etc. which would arise in the future for a stream-entrant are completely terminated and cease forever. When one attains the fruition of a non-returner then any aggregates (consciousness, name & form), etc. which would arise in the future for a once-returner are completely terminated and cease forever. And finally, when one attains the arahant fruition then any aggregates which would arise in the future for a non-returner are completely terminated and cease forever.

Why is this so? Because in each case the causes and conditions for future arising are eliminated with the fruition of each noble path. This is the whole point of conditioned arising (paṭiccasamuppāda) -- it occurs and ceases to occur due to specific conditionality (idappaccayatā). Phenomena arise according to specific conditionality:
  • When this is, that is.
    From the arising of this comes the arising of that.
And phenomena cease according to specific conditionality:
  • When this isn’t, that isn’t.
    From the cessation of this comes the cessation of that.
vinasp
Posts: 1675
Joined: Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:49 pm
Location: Bristol. United Kingdom.

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Post by vinasp »

Hi everyone,

At Savatthi. "Bhikkhus, [form] is impermanent, both of the past and
the future, not to speak of the present. Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the
instructed noble disciple is indifferent towards [form] of the past;
he does not seek delight in [form] of the future; and he is practising
for revulsion towards [form] of the present, for its fading away and
cessation."

Replace [form] with [feeling], [perception], [volitional-formations],
and [consciousness].

From: Connected Discourses, Bhikkhu Bodhi, page 867, SN 22.9

Regards, Vincent.
Sarva
Posts: 209
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:49 pm

Re: Thoughts on Form and Consciousness in Dependent Origination

Post by Sarva »

vinasp wrote:Hi Sarva,

Thanks for setting out your present understanding. The least that I can
do in return is to offer mine. I hope that it may be of some help to you.
Thank you Vincent, for taking the time to share you views it is helpful. :)
“Both formerly & now, it is only stress that I describe, and the cessation of stress.” — SN 22:86
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