Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

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Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue May 01, 2012 7:38 am

Hello there and thanks to all of you who help make, moderate, and administrate this wonderful website. This place is awesome and yields something new for me to read and learn about everyday. But you see, the other day I spent about 30 minutes locating and writing quotes out of my book "The Quotable Atheist" in the Atheist Quotes thread, ones I thought were rather funny as well, but they never showed up and it appears there has not been anything added on there in over a month, however, it doesn't say it's locked. So I was just wondering if that topic is dead and what happened to all that writing after it got submitted to moderation. Also, since that thread is already in the hot topics section, is there anyway you guys would consider having it free of moderation again because that thread has the potential to have loads of funny quotes in it? Thanks for listening and I hope this was the appropriate area to ask what happened.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 01, 2012 7:58 am

Hmm, somehow we missed that. Sorry!
See: viewtopic.php?f=37&t=11082&p=185465#p185465

:anjali:
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue May 01, 2012 8:27 am

Awesome, thank you very much!
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue May 01, 2012 8:32 am

Arghh, I just messed it up by editing it. I promise I will not edit it again. Feel free to get around to re-allowing it to post in your own time. My apologies
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Nyana » Tue May 01, 2012 10:05 am

I will again voice my concerns regarding that Atheist Quotes thread (since there is no allowance for criticism in the thread itself): What is the value of this Atheist Quotes thread on a Buddhist discussion forum? Firstly, a thread in the Open Dhamma sub-forum that is forever closed to any open discussion is quite pointless. Secondly, the views of many modern atheists are antithetical to the Buddhadhamma and having a thread which is not open to free discussion of the issues involved could be seen by onlookers as lending tacit support to such antithetical views.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Kim OHara » Tue May 01, 2012 11:27 am

Ñāṇa wrote:I will again voice my concerns regarding that Atheist Quotes thread (since there is no allowance for criticism in the thread itself): What is the value of this Atheist Quotes thread on a Buddhist discussion forum? Firstly, a thread in the Open Dhamma sub-forum that is forever closed to any open discussion is quite pointless. Secondly, the views of many modern atheists are antithetical to the Buddhadhamma and having a thread which is not open to free discussion of the issues involved could be seen by onlookers as lending tacit support to such antithetical views.

Agreed.

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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue May 01, 2012 2:44 pm

Ron-The-Elder,

I merged your atheist quotes posts in the real thread, this thread appears to be the meta-discussion regarding that topic.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue May 01, 2012 2:51 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:
Firstly, a thread in the Open Dhamma sub-forum that is forever closed to any open discussion is quite pointless.


Not at all, it is quite open, just moderated since it is in the Open Dhamma, Hot Topics sub-forum, which I find quite appropriate so that it remains what the thread is titled and not off on endless meta-discussions, as this thread is doing.

Secondly, the views of many modern atheists are antithetical to the Buddhadhamma and having a thread which is not open to free discussion of the issues involved could be seen by onlookers as lending tacit support to such antithetical views.


I disagree, as do many other Buddhists. You have had your discussion on this topic here: viewtopic.php?t=11852 where you currently have 89 posts made by you. That thread has 398 posts. How many more do we need discussing this topic?

I actually find the compatibility with skeptical atheist thought good. Many convert Buddhists have come to the Buddha-Dhamma through a healthy amount of agnostic-atheist-skepticism; call it skillful means, but it has been all good.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Nyana » Tue May 01, 2012 6:34 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:I disagree, as do many other Buddhists.

This recent addition to the thread is a good example:
Ron-The-Elder wrote:
Faith means not wanting to know what is true. — Friedrich Nietzsche


This is completely erroneous from a Buddhist perspective.

David N. Snyder wrote:I actually find the compatibility with skeptical atheist thought good. Many convert Buddhists have come to the Buddha-Dhamma through a healthy amount of agnostic-atheist-skepticism; call it skillful means, but it has been all good.

There's nothing skillful about atheistic materialism. Moreover, a thread which is de facto dedicated to highlighting statements ridiculing the beliefs of all other world religions is unseemly at best.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby rowboat » Tue May 01, 2012 6:55 pm

Ñāṇa:There's nothing skillful about atheistic materialism. Moreover, a thread which is de facto dedicated to highlighting statements ridiculing the beliefs of all other world religions is unseemly at best.


Unseemly at best. Many of these quotations popular with today's atheists are in fact highly caustic and contemptuous, and as such they are entirely indefensible, and anathema to a committed Buddhist practice.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby David N. Snyder » Tue May 01, 2012 7:27 pm

That thread is in the Open Dhamma, Hot Topics sub-forum. That sub-forum is not for everyone. Some may find the Buddhist rejection of a soul and other doctrines offensive too. This is a Buddhist board.

"If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen"
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Nyana » Tue May 01, 2012 7:49 pm

David N. Snyder wrote:That thread is in the Open Dhamma, Hot Topics sub-forum. That sub-forum is not for everyone. Some may find the Buddhist rejection of a soul and other doctrines offensive too. This is a Buddhist board.

"If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen"
Harry S Truman

Yeah, I thought it was a Buddhist board, not a New Atheism board. And I'm no shrinking violet -- I have no problem with hot topics. What I find most unhelpful is statements which are completely erroneous from a Buddhist perspective being asserted as somehow compatible with Buddhism. Atheistic materialism is a parasite which has successfully infected the Western imagination, and is now trying to infect Buddhism, primarily Pāli Buddhism, in the guise of myopic scientism. And if this weren't cause enough for concern, as Rowboat has already indicated, the views and expressions of the proponents of New Atheism are every bit as caustic and contemptuous as the views of the religious extremist which they are attempting to criticize.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby daverupa » Tue May 01, 2012 8:49 pm

Ñāṇa wrote:Atheistic materialism is a parasite...


Ñāṇa wrote:expressions...every bit as caustic and contemptuous...


:thinking:
    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.
- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Nyana » Tue May 01, 2012 9:00 pm

daverupa wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Atheistic materialism is a parasite...


Ñāṇa wrote:expressions...every bit as caustic and contemptuous...


Contrary to the New Atheists assertions that all religious beliefs are in some way equivalent to the beliefs of terrorist extremists, I don't try to draw an equivalency between the beliefs of atheistic materialism and, for example, the everpresent possibility of the mass annihilation of thousands of human beings from the detonation of a nuclear bomb, or any of the other horrors that Western science gave to our species in the 20th century.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby polarbuddha101 » Tue May 01, 2012 9:06 pm

This thread should be locked. It has fulfilled its purpose. Thank you for your help.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Ben » Tue May 01, 2012 11:15 pm

Hi everyone,

Just a quick note...
Personally, I am in favour of the thread remaining and I support David's decision to keep it on Dhamma Wheel.

For those of you who remember, at e-Sangha one of the crimes that could get you an instant permanent ban was to question the doctrine of rebirth. When we established Dhamma Wheel it was decided that it was far healthier for ideas to be aired and discussed rather than prohibited.

When the atheist quotes thread was started we placed it in the Open Dhamma - Hot Topics forum so that all submitted posts could be reviewed against the terms of service before being published. The thread is very slow moving and attracts only a small number of posts.

To date, the only complaints we have received about the thread are from Dhamma Wheel members who are concerned that it could offend other religionists and paint Buddhism in an unfavourable light. We have not received one complaint from another religionist with regards to the content on that thread.

A significant proportion of our members come to us via an upbrining in Christianity and Judaism as is another significant proportion of our members who have come to us from agnosticism/atheism.

The collection of quotes do not represent Dhamma Wheel's official view with regard to abrahamic religions. They are there because some find them inspirational, some find them challenging and others thought provoking. I would hope that they help to start an internal inquiry into the veracity of eternalism, and for that matter annihilationism and into the nature of belief, faith, knowledge - and not be the end of it.

Although I disagree with those who would like to have the thread removed - we will continue to listen to your concerns. For that reason, this thread in the suggestion box will remain open.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby manas » Wed May 02, 2012 2:08 am

David N. Snyder wrote:That thread is in the Open Dhamma, Hot Topics sub-forum. That sub-forum is not for everyone. Some may find the Buddhist rejection of a soul and other doctrines offensive too. This is a Buddhist board.

"If you don't like the heat, get out of the kitchen"
Harry S Truman


David, with respect, that's not what I suspect quite a few of us feel uncomfortable with. I certainly don't believe in an all powerful god from whom all 'souls' came, and to whom they must ultimately return. But I am picking a few subtle things up from the glee with which so many Buddhists seem to be jumping in with 'athiest quotes'. One is that behind the overt fun, there is a tinge of ill-will, perhaps because quite a few of us were once theists ourselves, and now have a subconscious anger towards our own former deludedness. But more concerning is a kind of materialistic reductionism that i feel has crept into modern Western Buddhism, which flows from our inbuilt prejudice (having been raised in societies where the scientific method is seen as the ultimate arbiter of what is 'really' true). We should remain more humble, and tolerant. We are still far from complete enlightenment. Let's not deride the beliefs of others too soon with our self-assured 'lion's roars'.

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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby polarbuddha101 » Wed May 02, 2012 2:22 am

The atheist quotes thread is 1) providing quotes that reflect buddhist insights and 2) providing fun and entertainment and witty quotes

I could see someone's problem with the perceived disparaging of other belief systems but even atheist quotes, and the implications that you draw about the posters of those quotes, have to be taken with a grain of salt.

The greatest thing about atheism is that it makes the whole world a joke to laugh at (while simultaneously making this life and happiness for everyone in it the most serious pursuit) and so it is funny to look at things from that perspective. Hear watch this to lighten the mood . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gCU5uplB4A
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby manas » Wed May 02, 2012 2:23 am

rowboat wrote:
Ñāṇa:There's nothing skillful about atheistic materialism. Moreover, a thread which is de facto dedicated to highlighting statements ridiculing the beliefs of all other world religions is unseemly at best.


Unseemly at best. Many of these quotations popular with today's atheists are in fact highly caustic and contemptuous, and as such they are entirely indefensible, and anathema to a committed Buddhist practice.


Well, we would do well to be careful that we fall within right speech:

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

Five keys to right speech

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198


"...it is spoken affectionately...it is spoken with a mind of good-will..." :thinking:

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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby polarbuddha101 » Wed May 02, 2012 2:29 am

manas wrote:
rowboat wrote:
Ñāṇa:There's nothing skillful about atheistic materialism. Moreover, a thread which is de facto dedicated to highlighting statements ridiculing the beliefs of all other world religions is unseemly at best.


Unseemly at best. Many of these quotations popular with today's atheists are in fact highly caustic and contemptuous, and as such they are entirely indefensible, and anathema to a committed Buddhist practice.


Well, we would do well to be careful that we fall within right speech:

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, from divisive speech, from abusive speech, & from idle chatter: This is called right speech."

— SN 45.8

Five keys to right speech

"Monks, a statement endowed with five factors is well-spoken, not ill-spoken. It is blameless & unfaulted by knowledgeable people. Which five?

"It is spoken at the right time. It is spoken in truth. It is spoken affectionately. It is spoken beneficially. It is spoken with a mind of good-will."

— AN 5.198


"...it is spoken affectionately...it is spoken with a mind of good-will..." :thinking:

namaste _/I\_


Well, I guess you have me there, mostly in that the thread falls under idle chatter.
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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