Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

The cultivation of calm or tranquility and the development of concentration
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tiltbillings
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by tiltbillings »

Zom wrote:Satipatthana actually leads to jhana ,)
Depends, of course, upon what one means by jhana.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Alex123
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Manas, all,
manas wrote: Hi Alex,
yes that's correct, but I also read so very often about how jhana gives the mind the strength and clarity with which to penetrate to insight. So we need to be careful that we don't disregard the importance of jhana just because it isn't a permanent state. (I'm not suggesting you were disregarding jhana's importance, but I have heard it disregarded before, for the reason given above, despite Buddha's oft-sounded instruction to "go, do jhana!").
:anjali:
AN book of 9s,Satipaṭṭhānavaggo, has really helpful suttas AN9.63-71 . AN9.64

Develop satipaṭṭhāna to remove (pahāna):
  • 5 things that weaken training (Sikkhādubbalya), 5 hindrances (Nīvaraṇa), 6 strings of sensuality (Kāmaguṇa), clinging to 5 aggregates, 5 lower factors, rebirth in 5 planes, 5 types of stinginess, 5 higher fetters, 5 barrenness of heart (Cetokhila), 5 bondages (Vinibandha).
No wonder satipaṭṭhāna is:
  • "the direct path (Ekāyano maggo) for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. MN10
  • "In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release" - AN10.103
Satipatthana seems to deal with everything!!!
Last edited by Alex123 on Fri Apr 27, 2012 4:44 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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reflection
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by reflection »

Zom wrote:Satipatthana actually leads to jhana ,)
True, but also the other way around is true. The experience of jhana gives a lot of information to consider. There are quite a lot of lines in the satipatthana sutta pointing to this. Sati and samadhi, you can't practice one without the other.
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manas
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by manas »

Alex123 wrote:Hello Manas, all,
manas wrote: Hi Alex,
yes that's correct, but I also read so very often about how jhana gives the mind the strength and clarity with which to penetrate to insight. So we need to be careful that we don't disregard the importance of jhana just because it isn't a permanent state. (I'm not suggesting you were disregarding jhana's importance, but I have heard it disregarded before, for the reason given above, despite Buddha's oft-sounded instruction to "go, do jhana!").
:anjali:
AN book of 9s,Satipaṭṭhānavaggo, has really helpful suttas AN9.63-71 . AN9.64

Develop satipaṭṭhāna to remove (pahāna):
  • 5 things that weaken training (Sikkhādubbalya), 5 hindrances (Nīvaraṇa), 6 strings of sensuality (Kāmaguṇa), clinging to 5 aggregates, 5 lower factors, rebirth in 5 planes, 5 types of stinginess, 5 higher fetters, 5 barrenness of heart (Cetokhila), 5 bondages (Vinibandha).
No wonder satipaṭṭhāna is:
  • "the direct path (Ekāyano maggo) for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow & lamentation, for the disappearance of pain & distress, for the attainment of the right method, & for the realization of Unbinding — in other words, the four frames of reference. MN10
  • "In a person of right mindfulness, right concentration. In a person of right concentration, right knowledge. In a person of right knowledge, right release" - AN10.103
Satipatthana seems to deal with everything!!!
Hi Alex

the satipatthana sutta is indeed a treasure, and is the detailed explanation of samma-sati, which is itself just one limb of the Noble Eightfold Path. But if mindfulness alone could solve everything, the Buddha would have given us a 'Noble Onefold Path' rather than the 'Noble Eightfold Path'!

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Alex123 »

manas wrote: the satipatthana sutta is indeed a treasure, and is the detailed explanation of samma-sati, which is itself just one limb of the Noble Eightfold Path. But if mindfulness alone could solve everything , the Buddha would have given us a 'Noble Onefold Path' rather than the 'Noble Eightfold Path'!
:anjali:
It is called "Ekāyano maggo" for a reason. It may be that deep development of satipatthana will develop all factors of N8P.
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reflection
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by reflection »

Alex123 wrote:
manas wrote: the satipatthana sutta is indeed a treasure, and is the detailed explanation of samma-sati, which is itself just one limb of the Noble Eightfold Path. But if mindfulness alone could solve everything , the Buddha would have given us a 'Noble Onefold Path' rather than the 'Noble Eightfold Path'!
:anjali:
It is called "Ekāyano maggo" for a reason. It may be that deep development of satipatthana will develop all factors of N8P.
This may be of interest:
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/voc/ekayanomaggo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now, I don't know a lot of pali, so I can only repeat what the link above states. In brief, "the only way" or "the direct way" apparently are not good translations of ekāyano maggo. Better would be to translate it a "the path leading to only", but that of course doesn't say it isn't supported by the other 7 factors.
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Alex123
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Reflection, all,


I understand that deep and consistent development of satipaṭṭhāna with right views from the moment one awakes to the moment one falls asleep will take care of other 6 factors. When one practices to be aware of "body in the body...", etc, it suppresses bad qualities and thus one keeps sīla. Also when one doesn't think about things as "this is I, me, mine, I want this, I don't want that", etc, it helps to maintain sīla. This is also right effort. Also continuous non-distracted awareness can serve as a basis for Jhāna. Without awareness you can't develop concentration, you can't keep precepts, you can't stop defilements from arising, you can't appropriately reflect on what occurs, etc...

And as my post with quotes show, satipaṭṭhāna does accomplish all else. Of course when one doesn't fully practice satipaṭṭhāna, other factors may not be fulfilled.

Dhamma can be summarized in FOUR words: "sabbe dhammā nālaṃ abhinivesāyāti".
  • "There is the case, monk, where a monk has heard, 'All things are unworthy of attachment.' Having heard that all things are unworthy of attachment, he directly knows every thing. Directly knowing every thing, he comprehends every thing. Comprehending every thing, he sees all themes as something separate. SN35.80
Comparing to that, satipaṭṭhāna is very detailed. The trick, as I understand it, is to fully develop it and be fully consistent in its application.


Another thing: If all and every mental/physical state is anicca, dukkha, anatta - then one doesn't need to construct anything special to see it. Just observe without commentary each and every state as it rises, persists, and falls. Gross or subtle state has these characteristics. It is delusion to believe that "ordinary" states of mind somehow do not have these characteristics, while special -jhanic- states of mind, do.
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manas
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by manas »

reflection wrote:
Alex123 wrote:
manas wrote: the satipatthana sutta is indeed a treasure, and is the detailed explanation of samma-sati, which is itself just one limb of the Noble Eightfold Path. But if mindfulness alone could solve everything , the Buddha would have given us a 'Noble Onefold Path' rather than the 'Noble Eightfold Path'!
:anjali:
It is called "Ekāyano maggo" for a reason. It may be that deep development of satipatthana will develop all factors of N8P.
This may be of interest:
http://www.buddha-vacana.org/voc/ekayanomaggo.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Now, I don't know a lot of pali, so I can only repeat what the link above states. In brief, "the only way" or "the direct way" apparently are not good translations of ekāyano maggo. Better would be to translate it a "the path leading to only", but that of course doesn't say it isn't supported by the other 7 factors.
The fact that so many pali terms are not easily translated with a single english word, or even a meaning that can be fully conveyed to a modern audience such as ourselves, is why I have begun the long-term task of learning pali, little by little. Those who translate the texts do us a great service, but they cannot stop us from misinterpreting things, with the real meaning of 'ekayano maggo' being one case in point. We need to study pali!


namaste _/I\_
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Alex123 »

An interesting thing:
A person can have wisdom (adhipaññādhammavipassanā) without internal tranquility (cetosamatha):
  • Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness.AN4.94

Puggalapaññattipāḷi explains this to mean that one can have Awakening without rūpa or arūpa attainments:
  • Kathañca puggalo lābhī hoti adhipaññādhammavipassanāya, na lābhī ajjhattaṃ cetosamathassa? Idhekacco puggalo lābhī hoti lokuttaramaggassa vā phalassa vā, na lābhī rūpasahagatānaṃ vā arūpasahagatānaṃ vā samāpattīnaṃ. - Pug 61
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Nyana »

Alex123 wrote:A person can have wisdom (adhipaññādhammavipassanā) without internal tranquility (cetosamatha):
  • Then there is the case of the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness.AN4.94
AN 4.94 also includes this instruction for said person:
  • As for the individual who has attained insight into phenomena through heightened discernment, but not internal tranquillity of awareness, he should approach an individual who has attained internal tranquillity of awareness... and ask him, 'How should the mind be steadied? How should it be made to settle down? How should it be unified? How should it be concentrated?' The other will answer in line with what he has seen & experienced: 'The mind should be steadied in this way. The mind should be made to settle down in this way. The mind should be unified in this way. The mind should be concentrated in this way.' Then eventually he [the first] will become one who has attained both internal tranquillity of awareness & insight into phenomena through heightened discernment.
Alex123 wrote:Puggalapaññattipāḷi explains this to mean that one can have Awakening without rūpa or arūpa attainments:
  • Kathañca puggalo lābhī hoti adhipaññādhammavipassanāya, na lābhī ajjhattaṃ cetosamathassa? Idhekacco puggalo lābhī hoti lokuttaramaggassa vā phalassa vā, na lābhī rūpasahagatānaṃ vā arūpasahagatānaṃ vā samāpattīnaṃ. - Pug 61
Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) are still considered necessary.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Alex123 »

Ñāṇa wrote:Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) are still considered necessary.
Which as I understand it come at the moment of awakening (maggaphala).
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Nyana »

Alex123 wrote:
Ñāṇa wrote:Jhāna which scrutinizes characteristics (lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna) and supramundane jhāna (lokuttarajjhāna) are still considered necessary.
Which as I understand it come at the moment of awakening (maggaphala).
Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna isn't limited to magga & phala, it pertains to vipassanā as well. Saṃyuttanikāya Sāratthappakāsinī Sagāthāvagga Aṭṭhakathā 1.36 Saddhāsuttavaṇṇanā:
  • Tattha lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ nāma vipassanāmaggaphalāni.

    Therein, lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna is the name of insight, path, and fruit.

    Vipassanā hi tīṇi lakkhaṇāni upanijjhāyatīti lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ.

    Insight meditates upon the three characteristics, therefore it is meditation on characteristics.

    Maggo vipassanāya āgatakiccaṃ sādhetīti lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ.

    The path completes the task begun by insight, therefore it is meditation on characteristics.

    Phalaṃ tathalakkhaṇaṃ nirodhasaccaṃ upanijjhāyatīti lakkhaṇūpanijjhānaṃ.

    Fruition meditates on the characteristic of reality that is the truth of cessation, therefore it is meditation on characteristics.
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Alex123 »

Hello Ñāṇa,

What about all the teachings in Patisambhidamagga that at stream entry path (and higher paths as well) various factors occur including what you would call Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna and vipassanā?
360. At the moment of the stream-entry path: Right view in the sense of seeing is then arrived at, right thought in the sense of directing onto is then arrived at, right speaking in the sense of embracing ... , right acting in the sense of originating ... , [74] right living in the sense of cleansing..., right effort in the sense of exerting..., right mindfulness in the sense of establishing ..., right concentration in the sense of non-distraction is then arrived at;
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Nyana »

Alex123 wrote:What about all the teachings in Patisambhidamagga that at stream entry path (and higher paths as well) various factors occur including what you would call Lakkhaṇūpanijjhāna and vipassanā?
What about them Alex?
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Re: Jhāna According to the Pāḷi Nikāyas

Post by Modus.Ponens »

The possibility of people reaching arya states, without jhana doesn't mean that all people can do that. The universal path, i.e., the noble 8fold path, includes jhana.
'This is peace, this is exquisite — the resolution of all fabrications; the relinquishment of all acquisitions; the ending of craving; dispassion; cessation; Unbinding.' - Jhana Sutta
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