SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

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SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 01, 2012 8:09 am

SN 12.68 PTS: S ii 115 CDB i 609
Kosambi Sutta: At Kosambi (On Knowing Dependent Co-arising)
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


Four good friends share a frank discussion about their grasp of dependent co-arising. One uses a memorable simile to describe the difference between stream-entry and arahatship.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

On one occasion Ven. Musila, Ven. Pavittha, Ven. Narada, and Ven. Ananda were staying in Kosambi at Ghosita's monastery.

Then Ven. Pavittha said to Ven. Musila, "Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From birth as a requisite condition come aging & death'?"

"Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'From birth as a requisite condition come aging & death.'"

(Similarly with 'From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth'... 'From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming'... 'From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance'... 'From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving'... 'From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling'... 'From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact'... 'From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media'... 'From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form'... 'From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness.')

"Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications'?"

"Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications.'"

"Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From the cessation of birth comes the cessation of aging & death'?"

"Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'From the cessation of birth comes the cessation of aging & death.'"

(Similarly with 'From the cessation of becoming comes the cessation of birth'... 'From the cessation of clinging/sustenance comes the cessation of becoming'... 'From the cessation of craving comes the cessation of clinging/sustenance'... 'From the cessation of feeling comes the cessation of craving'... 'From the cessation of contact comes the cessation of feeling'... 'From the cessation of the six sense media comes the cessation of contact'... 'From the cessation of name-&-form comes the cessation of the six sense media'... 'From the cessation of consciousness comes the cessation of name-&-form'... 'From the cessation of fabrications comes the cessation of consciousness.')

"Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications'?"

"Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'From the cessation of ignorance comes the cessation of fabrications.'"

"Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding'?"

"Yes, Pavittha my friend. Putting aside conviction... preference... tradition... reasoning through analogies... an agreement through pondering views, I do have truly personal knowledge that, 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding.'"

"Then, Ven. Musila, you are an arahant whose fermentations are ended."

When this was said, Ven. Musila was silent. [1]

Then Ven. Narada said, "Pavittha my friend, it would be good if I were to get that question. Ask me that question and I will answer it for you."

"Then Ven. Narada will get that question. I will ask Ven. Narada that question, and may he answer that question for me."

(Ven. Pavittha asks the same questions of Ven. Narada, who gives the same answers as Ven. Musila.)

"Then, Ven. Narada, you are an arahant whose fermentations are ended."

"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended. [2] It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. [3] In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended."

When this was said, Ven. Ananda said to Ven. Pavittha, "When he speaks in this way, friend Pavittha, what do you have to say about Ven. Narada?"

"When Ven. Narada speaks in this way, friend Ananda, I have nothing to say about Ven. Narada except that [he is] admirable & skillful."

Notes

1. According to the Commentary, Ven. Musila's silence here is a sign of affirmation.

2. In other words, he has attained one of the preliminary levels of awakening (stream-entry, once-returning, or non-returning), but not full arahantship. As Mv.I.23.5 shows, even the level of stream-entry affords a vision of the Deathless.

3. The image refers to two common similes for the full experience of Unbinding: (a) it is refreshing & nourishing, like drinking water
(see Dhp 205 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/kn/dhp/dhp.15.than.html#dhp-205);
and (b) some arahants experience it as if touching it with the body
(see AN 9.45 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an09/an09.045.than.html).

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 01, 2012 8:20 am

From The Island: Teachings on Nibbana Ajahn Pasanno & Ajahn Amaro
http://forestsanghapublications.org/vie ... 10&ref=vec
Page 291

A partial accomplishment in concentration and wisdom is still enough to
take one to a clear vision of the Dhamma. Even a partial attainment, that is,
stream-entry, is sufficient to lay the foundation for understanding the true nature of things and to begin to realize the transcendent fruits of practice. An example of this is when Sariputta first received a brief teaching from Assaji, one of the original five disciples of the Buddha:

    Now when the wanderer Sariputta heard this statement
    of the Dhamma, the spotless, immaculate vision of the Dhamma
    arose in him: All that is subject to arising is subject to cessation.
    ... Sariputta went to Moggallana the wanderer. Moggallana the
    wanderer saw him coming. He said: “Your faculties are serene,
    friend, the colour of your skin is clear and bright. Is it possible that
    you have found the Deathless?” “Yes, friend, I have found the
    Deathless.”
    ~ MV 1.23 (Bhikkhu Ñanamoli trans.)
This seeing of the Deathless is the ‘uncommon knowledge’ mentioned in
[http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an06/an06.097.than.html] and it is an essential aspect to the sotapatti experience. Insight into the
nature of the goal gives one the confidence and clarity to practise correctly as
one’s vision is now unclouded.

SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta
    “Friend Savittha, apart from faith, apart from personal
    preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned
    reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it, I
    know this, I see this: ‘Nibbana is the cessation of becoming.’”

    “Then the Venerable Narada is an arahant, one whose taints are
    destroyed.”

    “Friend, though I have clearly seen as it really is with correct
    wisdom, ‘Nibbana is the cessation of becoming,’ I am not an
    arahant, one whose taints are destroyed. Suppose, friend, there
    was a well along a desert road, but it had neither a rope nor a
    bucket. Then a man would come along, oppressed and afflicted
    by the heat, tired, parched, and thirsty. He would look down into
    the well and the knowledge would occur to him, ‘There is
    water,’ but he would not be able to make bodily contact with it.

    So too, friend, though I have clearly seen as it really is with
    correct wisdom, ‘Nibbana is the cessation of becoming,’ I am not
    an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed.”

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby Sam Vara » Tue May 01, 2012 12:00 pm

Then Ven. Pavittha said to Ven. Musila, "Musila, my friend, putting aside conviction, putting aside preference, putting aside tradition, putting aside reasoning through analogies, putting aside an agreement through pondering views: Do you have truly personal knowledge that, 'From birth as a requisite condition come aging & death'?"

Hi Mike,

What is common to the Arahant and the stream-entrant is that they both know what they are directly, without requiring conviction, preference, tradition, reasoning by analogy, or pondering views. I, on the other hand, can only "know" what they are by one or more of those means.

What does this fact do to any current thoughts I might have about the distinction between Arahants and stream-entrants? Does it mean that such thoughts are at the moment hardly worth the effort of thinking them?

I have of course a lot of sympathy with the view that we ought at least to know what the suttas say, and that this is very different from knowing (with "truly personal knowledge") what it is that they are referring to. But unless we know the referent, we cannot know whether we are wasting our time or not. Unless, of course, our knowledge is via conviction, preference, tradition, reasoning by analogy, or pondering views.

After this big question, three tiny little ones which pale into miserable insignificance.

1) Is there an alternative translation for "truly personal knowledge"? I can't get to my hard copy Bhikkhu Bodhi at the moment....[Update! In fact, BB also uses "personal knowledge"!]

2) Is the list of mental qualities which can be put aside and which qualify knowledge (conviction...pondering views) intended to be exhaustive of those which are outside of "truly personal knowledge"? Is the list repeated elsewhere in the canon?

3) Is "reasoning by analogy" intended to cover all forms of reasoning? There is a big difference between what we normally term an analogy, and reasoning. If we think along the lines that "X is analogous to Y, therefore salient features of X also apply to Y", then any logician would be able to explain how we are being led astray. But there is no analogy, as such, in knowing with certainty that birth is a necessary precondition of death, or that craving is similarly dependent upon contact. Such things could be said to be analytically true, and therefore known by reason, but not by analogy.

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 03, 2012 7:36 am

Hi Sam,

Not completely sure how to answer your questions, but I'll work through Bhikkhu Bodhi's notes.

I thought that the particularly interesting thing about this sutta was this passage about the "glimpse of nibbana" before arahantship.
It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended."

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Thu May 03, 2012 7:44 am

On one occasion the Venerable Musı̄la, the Venerable Saviṭṭha, the Venerable Nārada, and the Venerable Ānanda were living at Kosambı̄ in Ghosita’s Park.


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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby Sam Vara » Thu May 03, 2012 9:59 am

I thought that the particularly interesting thing about this sutta was this passage about the "glimpse of nibbana" before arahantship.
It's as if there were a well along a road in a desert, with neither rope nor water bucket. A man would come along overcome by heat, oppressed by the heat, exhausted, dehydrated, & thirsty. He would look into the well and would have knowledge of 'water,' but he would not dwell touching it with his body. In the same way, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended."


Hi Mike,

I agree. Such a glimpse would be a particularly noteworthy experience, in that it would have to be "truly personal knowledge". We cannot know that it is truly nibbana unless we know independently of conviction, preference, tradition, reasoning through analogies, or agreement through pondering views. The "touching with one's body" metaphor is presumably drawing our attention to the immediacy of the experience, as the other types of knowledge involve mediation via mental processes. It is this problem which vitiates language and understanding about the path ahead.

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 04, 2012 3:58 am

Hi Sam,

I understood this to be talking about direct experience, just not enough direct experience to end all of the fermentations.

I presume it is suttas such as this that are the basis for the Classical Theravada exposition of the progress of insight, where the culmination of each of the four paths involves experience of nibbana.

:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 04, 2012 4:12 am

Then the Venerable Saviṭṭha said to the Venerable Musı̄la: “Friend Musı̄la, apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it, [*] does the Venerable Musı̄la have personal knowledge thus: ‘With birth as condition, aging-and-death [comes to be]’?”

    * BB: These five grounds for the acceptance of a thesis recur at:
    SN 35:153 http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html
      34. 15. 8. (153) Atthinukho pariyàyo: There is a method
    and are examined critically by the Buddha at:
    MN II 170,26-171,25; MN 95 Canki Sutta, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
      These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Now some things are firmly held in conviction and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not firmly held in conviction, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. Some things are well-liked... truly an unbroken tradition... well-reasoned... Some things are well-pondered and yet vain, empty, & false. Some things are not well-pondered, and yet they are genuine, factual, & unmistaken. In these cases it isn't proper for a knowledgeable person who safeguards the truth to come to a definite conclusion, 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless."
    See too MN II 218,15-21. MN 101 Devadaha Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
      "When this was said, I said to the Niganthas, 'Friend Niganthas, there are five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. Which five? Conviction, liking, unbroken tradition, reasoning by analogy, & an agreement through pondering views. These are the five things that can turn out in two ways in the here-&-now. That being the case, what kind of conviction do you have for your teacher with regard to the past? What kind of liking? What kind of unbroken tradition? What kind of reasoning by analogy? What kind of agreement through pondering views?' But when I said this, I did not see that the Niganthas had any legitimate defense of their teaching.
    Here they are being contrasted with personal knowledge (paccattameva ñāṇa). For a detailed discussion, see Jayatilleke, Early Buddhist Theory of Knowledge, pp. 182-88, 274-76.

    Spk: One person accepts something through faith (saddhā) by placing faith in another and accepting what he says as true. Another accepts something through personal preference (ruci) when he approves of some thesis by reflecting on it and then takes it to be true. One accepts a thesis by oral tradition (anussava) when one thinks: “This has come down from ancient times by oral tradition, so it must be true.” For another, as he thinks, a certain thesis appears valid, and he concludes, “So it is”: he accepts it by reasoned reflection (ākāraparivitakka).

    BB: Jayatilleke discusses ākāra as meaning “reason” at p. 274.) In the fifth case, as one reflects, a view arises by pondering some hypothesis; this is acceptance of a view after pondering it (diṭṭhinijjhānakkhanti.

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby Sam Vara » Fri May 04, 2012 7:03 pm

These are some brilliant links. I had read the Canki Sutta recently, but did not see how it addressed the epistemological questions raised by the Kosambi Sutta and others. The relationship between "safeguarding the truth" (i.e. not misrepresenting the nature of one's knowledge) and "awakening to the truth" is really subtle. Conviction is important as the first stage of the process of awakening, but it must be known as such. There is something particularly pleasing about the safeguarding of a truth that one has not yet awoken to.

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 04, 2012 7:16 pm

Sam Vega wrote:These are some brilliant links.

Yes, Bhikkhu Bodhi's cross-referencing is awesome. :quote:
That he has provided such high-quality links and commentary throughout the entire SN and the soon-to-be-released AN is truly inspirational.

Sam Vega wrote:Conviction is important as the first stage of the process of awakening, but it must be known as such. There is something particularly pleasing about the safeguarding of a truth that one has not yet awoken to.

Yes, I think that it is really important to bear that in mind in any discussion of Dhamma:
"If a person has conviction, his statement, 'This is my conviction,' safeguards the truth. But he doesn't yet come to the definite conclusion that 'Only this is true; anything else is worthless.'


:anjali:
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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 04, 2012 7:24 pm

“Friend Musı̄la, apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it, does the Venerable Musı̄la have personal knowledge thus: ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence’?”

    [b]BB: [/b] Bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ. Spk: Nibbāna is the cessation of the five aggregates.

“Friend Saviṭṭha, apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it, I know this, I see this: ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence.’”

“Then the Venerable Musı̄la is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed.”

When this was said, the Venerable Musı̄la kept silent.

    Spk: The elder Musīla was an arahant, but without saying whether or not it was so he just kept silent.

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby YouthThunder » Sat May 05, 2012 9:14 am

mikenz66 wrote:“Friend Musı̄la, apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it, does the Venerable Musı̄la have personal knowledge thus: ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence’?”

    [b]BB: [/b] Bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ. Spk: Nibbāna is the cessation of the five aggregates.

“Friend Saviṭṭha, apart from faith, apart from personal preference, apart from oral tradition, apart from reasoned reflection, apart from acceptance of a view after pondering it, I know this, I see this: ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence.’”

“Then the Venerable Musı̄la is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed.”

When this was said, the Venerable Musı̄la kept silent.

    Spk: The elder Musīla was an arahant, but without saying whether or not it was so he just kept silent.


Wait,I thought the Buddha said that he is not a nihilist?

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Sat May 05, 2012 10:37 am

Hi YouthThunder,
YouthThunder wrote:Wait,I thought the Buddha said that he is not a nihilist?

Well, the sutta says:
... does the Venerable Musı̄la have personal knowledge thus: ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence’?”

And then Bhikhu Bodhi explains that the term bhavanirodho:
[b]BB: [/b] Bhavanirodho nibbānaṃ. Spk: Nibbāna is the cessation of the five aggregates.

is interpreted by the Commentary ("Spk") to mean "cessation of the five aggregates". Nibbana is "the unconditioned" so experience of the unconditioned must mean the ceasing of the aggregates (which are conditioned). Also note that the Pali term bhava is translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi as "existence" and by Thanissaro Bhikku as "becoming".

See also:
http://what-buddha-said.net/library/Bud ... .htm#bhava
Bhava: 'becoming', 'process of existence', consists of 3 planes: sense-existence kāma-bhava, fine-material existence rūpa-bhava, immaterial existence arūpa-bhava. Cf. loka.

The whole process of existence may be divided into two aspects:

1: Kamma-making kamma-bhava, i.e. the kammically active side of existence, being the cause of rebirth and consisting in advantageous and disadvantageous intentional actions. See Kamma, paticca-samuppāda IX.

2: Kamma-produced rebirth, or regenerating process uppattibhava, i.e. the kammically passive side of existence consisting in the arising and developing of the kamma-produced and therefore morally neutral mental and bodily phenomena of existence. Cf. Tab. - App..

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Sat May 05, 2012 8:40 pm

Then the Venerable Nārada said to the Venerable Saviṭṭha: “Friend Saviṭṭha, it would be good if I were asked that series of questions. Ask me that series of questions and I will answer you.”

    Spk: Why did he speak up? It is said that he reflected thus: “This proposition—‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence’—can be understood even by trainees. But this elder (Saviṭṭha) places that one (Musīla) on the plane of the arahant. I will make him understand this matter correctly.”

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 06, 2012 4:28 am

“Then the Venerable Nārada is an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed.”

“Friend, though I have clearly seen as it really is with correct wisdom, ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence,’ I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed

    Spk: Clearly seen ... with correct wisdom: clearly seen with path wisdom together with insight.
    I am not an arahant: he indicates this because he stands on the path of nonreturning. But his knowledge that “Nibbāna is the cessation of existence” is a type of reviewing knowledge (paccavekkhaṇañāṇa ) apart from the nineteen (regular) types of reviewing knowledge.

    BB: See: Visuddhimagga XXII:19-21
      19. At the end of the fruition his consciousness enters the life-continuum. After
      that, it arises as mind-door adverting interrupting the life-continuum for the purpose
      of reviewing the path. When that has ceased, seven impulsions of path reviewing
      arise. After re-entry into the life-continuum, adverting, etc., arise again in the same
      way for the purpose of reviewing fruition, and so on. With the arising of these he
      reviews the path, he reviews the fruition, he reviews the defilements abandoned, he
      reviews the defilements still remaining, and he reviews Nibbána.

      20. He reviews the path in this way, “So this is the path I have come by.” Next he
      reviews the fruition after that in this way, “This is the blessing I have obtained.”
      Next he reviews the defilements that have been abandoned, “These are the
      defilements abandoned in me.” Next he reviews the defilements still to be
      eliminated by the three higher paths, “These are the defilements still remaining
      in me.” And lastly he reviews the deathless Nibbána in this way, “This is the
      state (dhamma) that has been penetrated by me as object.” So the noble disciple
      who is a stream-enterer has five kinds of reviewing.

      21. And as in the case of the stream-enterer, so also in the cases of the once-
      returner and non-returner. But the Arahant has no reviewing of remaining
      defilements. So all the kinds of reviewing total nineteen. This is the maximum
      number. Trainers may or may not have the reviewing of the defilements
      abandoned and those still remaining. In fact it was owing to the absence of such
      reviewing that Mahánáma asked the Blessed One, “What state is there still
      unabandoned by me internally owing to which at times states of greed invade
      my mind and remain?”
      M I 91 [MN 14 http://www.dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=12266]
        Yet even though I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One that greed is a defilement of the mind, aversion is a defilement of the mind, delusion is a defilement of the mind, there are still times when the mental quality of greed invades my mind and remains, when the mental quality of aversion...
      all of which should be quoted.

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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 08, 2012 3:17 am

Suppose, friend, there was a well along a desert road, but it had neither a rope nor a bucket. Then a man would come along, oppressed and afflicted by the heat, tired, parched, and thirsty. He would look down into the well and the knowledge would occur to him, ‘There is water,’ but he would not be able to make bodily contact with it.

    BB: Na ca kāyena phusitvā vihareyya, lit. “but he would not dwell having contacted it with the body.”
    Spk glosses: “He would not be able to draw out the water.”

So too, friend, though I have clearly seen as it really is with correct wisdom, ‘Nibbāna is the cessation of existence,’ I am not an arahant, one whose taints are destroyed.”

    Spk: The seeing of water in the well represents the seeing of Nibbāna by the nonreturner. The man afflicted by heat represents the nonreturner; the water bucket, the path of arahantship. As the man oppressed by heat sees water in the well, the nonreturner knows by reviewing knowledge, “There exists a breakthrough to the path of arahantship” (reading with Se arahattaphalābhisamaya). But as the man lacking the bucket cannot draw out the water and touch it with the body, so the nonreturner, lacking the path of arahantship, cannot sit down and become absorbed in the attainment of the fruit of arahantship, which has Nibbāna as its object.

    BB: It would be a misunderstanding of Nārada’s reply to take it as a rejoinder to Musīla’s tacit claim that he is an arahant (the interpretation adopted by Gombrich, How Buddhism Began, pp. 128-29).
    The point is not that Musīla was unjustified in consenting to that title, but that Saviṭṭha drew an incorrect inference, for he held the wrong belief that the defining mark of an arahant is the understanding of dependent origination and the nature of Nibbāna.
    This understanding, rather, is common property of the trainee and the arahant.
    What distinguishes the arahant from the trainee is not his insight into dependent origination (and other principles of the Dhamma) but the fact that he has used this insight to eradicate all defilements and has thereby gained access to a unique meditative state (called in the commentaries arahattaphalasamāpatti, the fruition attainment of arahantship) in which he can dwell “touching the deathless element with his body.”

    BB: At SN 48:53, too, (http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/sn/sn48/sn48.053.than.html) the expression kāyena phusitvā viharati highlights the essential difference between the sekha and the asekha; see V, n. 238.
      BB Note to SN 48:43:
      “Again, bhikkhus, a bhikkhu who is a trainee understands the five spiritual faculties—the faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom. He does not yet dwell having contacted with the body that is their destination, their culmination, their fruit, their final goal; but having pierced it through with wisdom, he sees.
        Yaṃgatikāni yamparamāni yamphalāni yampariyosānāni na h’ eva kho kāyena phusitvā viharati paññāya ca ativijjha passati.
        A similar construction is at 46:54 (V 118,22-27 foll.).
        Woodward translates the above as if the negative na applies to both phrases: “he dwells not in personal experience thereof, nor does he pierce through and through by insight and see them plain” (KS 5:205). This rendering, however, misses the essential difference between the trainee and the arahant: the trainee sees Nibbāna, the final goal in which the five faculties culminate
        See SN 48:57
          “The five faculties, when developed and cultivated, have the Deathless as their ground, the Deathless as their destination, the Deathless as their final goal. What five? The faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom. These five faculties, when developed and cultivated, have the Deathless as their ground, the Deathless as their destination, the Deathless as their final goal.
          [\list]
          but cannot enter upon the full experience of it; the arahant both sees the goal and can experience it here and now. The conjunction ca should be understood in the disjunctive sense, as Spk confirms with its paraphrase: “He does not dwell having contacted that, having obtained that, with the name-body (nāmakāya, the corpus of mental factors); but (pana as a gloss on ca) he understands by reviewing wisdom, ‘Beyond there is a faculty—the fruit of arahantship.’ On the plane of the arahant he dwells having obtained this, and he understands by reviewing wisdom, ‘There is a faculty—the fruit of arahantship.’”
          [\list]

        For parallel texts on the difference between the stream-enterer and the arahant, see SN 22:109-110 (stated in terms of the five aggregates)
        http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pit ... ggo-e.html
        (109) Sotàpanno
        (110) Arahat
        and
        SN 48:2-5, SN 48:26-27, SN 48:32-33 (in terms of the faculties).
          e.g. SN 48:2
          “Bhikkhus, there are these five faculties. What five? The faculty of faith, the faculty of energy, the faculty of mindfulness, the faculty of concentration, the faculty of wisdom.

          “When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple understands as they really are the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these five faculties, then he is called a noble disciple who is a stream-enterer, no longer bound to the nether world, fixed in destiny, with enlightenment as his destination.”

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mikenz66
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Re: SN 12.68: Kosambi Sutta — At Kosambi

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 08, 2012 8:11 am

As I said above, the interesting thing about this Suttas is this statement:
"My friend, although I have seen properly with right discernment, as it actually is present, that 'The cessation of becoming is Unbinding,' still I am not an arahant whose fermentations are ended.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu comments:
In other words, he has attained one of the preliminary levels of awakening (stream-entry, once-returning, or non-returning), but not full arahantship. As Mv.I.23.5 shows, even the level of stream-entry affords a vision of the Deathless.

:anjali:
Mike


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