Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby David N. Snyder » Sat May 05, 2012 10:10 pm

Buckwheat wrote:Initially, it was closed


Cittasanto wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:The 'board' was never closed. This seems to be a common misconception.

I am reading this thread with some amusement at the amount of times this has been said.


Buckwheat wrote:This still doesn't make sense to me, though. If I want to start a thread telling jokes about how stupid Nevadans are, and I call it a hot topic, then anybody who wants to defend Nevadans has to do it on another, separate thread so as to not interfere with my Nevadan bashing? Doesn't really seem brilliant to me. Just to be cleaer, I have no actual desire to bash Nevadans. I lived in NV for a year.


Buckwheat,
Please see the terms of service: viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2 (Being disruptive, personal attacks, meta-discussion is not allowed)
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Cittasanto » Sat May 05, 2012 10:39 pm

Hi Buckwheat,
IT WAS NEVER CLOSED

it is underlined (by me now) in the part you quote! I am highlighting it as it has been said a few times.

well have you read this thread yet?
The fact of not being able to argue against something doesn't make sense to me either but obviously the op is obviously seen as being quite specific so complaining about it and not posting within the OP & TOS, alternatives, (considering the amount of Atheists/secular quotes out their I am sure there are some,) is like saying I do not celebrate christmas but I will turn up and accept presents and the food, and basically be a mooch and party pooper at a family get together, pointless.

Buckwheat wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:
David N. Snyder wrote:The 'board' was never closed. This seems to be a common misconception.

I am reading this thread with some amusement at the amount of times this has been said.
isn't their a notice shown upon posting a response telling people that the posts are moderated in the "hot topics" section due to the high possibility of it going off topic?

just one question about the Hot topics section can posters start new threads there or do they have to be moved?
sorry for the off topic Q :juggling: :tongue:


Initially, it was closed, and I never got the memo that it was moved because all my posts were off topic. So, I've been a little out of the loop because I haven't been reading these threads.

This still doesn't make sense to me, though. If I want to start a thread telling jokes about how stupid Nevadans are, and I call it a hot topic, then anybody who wants to defend Nevadans has to do it on another, separate thread so as to not interfere with my Nevadan bashing? Doesn't really seem brilliant to me. Just to be cleaer, I have no actual desire to bash Nevadans. I lived in NV for a year.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Buckwheat » Sat May 05, 2012 10:52 pm

I tried to post one day, and the thread was locked. Sorry, locked. Maybe that is different than "closed"? That does not matter, it is not my point. Only a statement that through it being temporarily locked I thought it was closed. Doesn't matter, close or not is totally beside the point.

The defense for this thread is to allow open discussion, yet open discussion is not allowed. Just because you say it is allowed does not mean it is allowed, as anybody who dissented had their posts removed. Even a pretty benign post by Kim was removed, while a response to it was allowed to remain. This falls under what I think of as "censorship", but apparently others don't care.

I am now going to ignore any thread with the word atheist in it. Sorry for any confusion or frustration I had a part in.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Cittasanto » Sat May 05, 2012 11:25 pm

The posts need approval first, at the end of the day if you want to argue against the quotes why not post quotes of a secular nature which show them as wrong, instead of trying to discuss in a meta-discussion?
I have Christian friends who on occasion say things which are rediculous to me, I don't try to prove them wrong by quoting the Dhammapada, I use the bible, or another christian source to show the error.
BTW I say secular nature as not all of the quotes are atheist quotes some are by non-atheists.

Buckwheat wrote:I tried to post one day, and the thread was locked. Sorry, locked. Maybe that is different than "closed"? That does not matter, it is not my point. Only a statement that through it being temporarily locked I thought it was closed. Doesn't matter, close or not is totally beside the point.

The defense for this thread is to allow open discussion, yet open discussion is not allowed. Just because you say it is allowed does not mean it is allowed, as anybody who dissented had their posts removed. Even a pretty benign post by Kim was removed, while a response to it was allowed to remain. This falls under what I think of as "censorship", but apparently others don't care.

I am now going to ignore any thread with the word atheist in it. Sorry for any confusion or frustration I had a part in.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby polarbuddha101 » Sun May 06, 2012 12:27 am

In hindsight I shouldn't have asked what happened to my quotes. :toilet:

before typing anything on this thread watch this and relax...


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gCU5uplB4A
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"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Modus.Ponens » Sun May 06, 2012 12:58 am

I don't understand what all the comotion is. There is a topic created by Ñana criticizing atheism. Atheism can be criticized there. And there's a topic for atheist quotes (which is far from "stupid Nevadans" bashing). What is the option? Closing the topic and thus censuring atheist quotes? That doesn't make sense.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Buckwheat » Sun May 06, 2012 1:11 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:I don't understand what all the comotion is. There is a topic created by Ñana criticizing atheism. Atheism can be criticized there. And there's a topic for atheist quotes (which is far from "stupid Nevadans" bashing). What is the option? Closing the topic and thus censuring atheist quotes? That doesn't make sense.

No, I do not want to close the topic. I am an atheist, and that's when I get bothered by other atheists giving my "kind" a bad name. When I attempted fair discussion I was removed by the moderators. I'm not complaining about that, I deserved it because I got angry.

But I would also like to add: Is it possible for someone to believe in God and still be a warm, caring person? Yes, it is. So should we continue making fun of them?
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun May 06, 2012 1:21 am

Buckwheat wrote:Is it possible for someone to believe in God and still be a warm, caring person? Yes, it is. So should we continue making fun of them?


No one suggested otherwise. Not a single poster suggested that a theist could not be a warm, caring person. The only person even raising the question at all is you.

Offensive posts against theists are not approved. It is a thread for quotes related to non-theism / atheism where some may be humorous, some that may be serious, but are directed at the issue, not a person. Interpretation like beauty is in the eye of the beholder.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun May 06, 2012 1:25 am

Modus.Ponens wrote:I don't understand what all the comotion is. There is a topic created by Ñana criticizing atheism. Atheism can be criticized there. And there's a topic for atheist quotes (which is far from "stupid Nevadans" bashing). What is the option? Closing the topic and thus censuring atheist quotes? That doesn't make sense.


Thanks for that, I agree. The irony in this whole thing is that those opposed to the atheist quotes thread were claiming censorship, when in fact they want the rest of us censored from posting in that thread.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Kim OHara » Sun May 06, 2012 2:09 am

David N. Snyder wrote: ... The irony in this whole thing is that those opposed to the atheist quotes thread were claiming censorship, when in fact they want the rest of us censored from posting in that thread.

Hi, David,
That's not quite true, IMHO. What I (and others) have objected to is that posts commenting on specific 'atheist quotes' cannot be posted within that same thread in direct response to the quotes. In every other thread on the board (AFAIK), any post can be replied to. If that thread can be permitted to stay open, then (again IMHO) the same should apply.
I replied - politely enough, I thought - to the OP of Atheist quotes and an (ahem) robust discussion ensued but was (as others have noted) closed down - by restricting posts in that thread strictly to quotes - and comments on quotes were removed.
It is a peculiar situation and one which clearly arouses strong feelings. I don't like it but won't let it affect my participation elsewhere on DW or my respect for the mods who do an excellent job and get little enough thanks for it.

:namaste:
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby David N. Snyder » Sun May 06, 2012 2:40 am

The last sentence of paragraph 2 of the Terms of Service:

This includes the badmouthing of other Buddhist discussion forums, trolling, meta-discussion (i.e. discussion about discussion), unsubstantiated allegations against members, solicitation of funds and proselytizing.


Meta-discussion is not allowed, although it often occurs (as in this thread) and sometimes as necessary we have allowed some, but in general we try to avoid allowing meta-discussions as they seemingly never end (like this one). :tongue: Sometimes meta-discussion doesn't get reported or it simply remains in some threads because no one has complained about it.

Some threads are meant to be very specific, but that doesn't necessarily negate any discussion as we have seen with this topic as there is this thread and several others discussing the issue of theism, etc.

For example, there is a thread in the lounge called word association game. A post on the significance of the Satipatthana Sutta would obviously be off-topic. That doesn't stop someone from posting on the Satipatthana Sutta elsewhere in another sub-forum.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Ben » Sun May 06, 2012 3:09 am

Dear all,

No doubt the existence of the Atheist Quotes thread is provoking a lot of strong feelings. I ask those who object to the presence of the thread to 'step back' and please re-read David's posts. If the content of the post is not for you then I kindly request that you don't read or participate in it. As I said in a reply to Kim, if there are quotes you wish to respond to - feel free to create another thread that critiques the quotes you take issue with.

Have no doubt that we are listening to your concerns - even if from time to time our decisions may be contrary to your wishes. We (the mod/admin team) will continue to discuss the presence of the Atheist Quotes thread amongst ourselves.
All the best,

Ben
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Buckwheat » Sun May 06, 2012 5:18 am

David N. Snyder wrote:The irony in this whole thing is that those opposed to the atheist quotes thread were claiming censorship, when in fact they want the rest of us censored from posting in that thread.

That is not true. I said several times that I want the thread to remain open. I just don't want to be silenced when commenting on certain quotes being taken out of context. I would also like to encourage those who post to be very careful about crossing lines into wrong speech, which was prevalent in the first run of the thread and still exists to some extent.

Ben wrote:...feel free to create another thread that critiques the quotes you take issue with.

Excellent. I now see that this was mentioned before, but like I said, I got cut out of the loop on these threads due to the technicalities of how the thread got removed and edited. I felt like an important voice was shut out, but now I see another method is available. Is it allowable for one to add a post to the atheist quotes thread citing a questionable quote and point to the thread with discussion on the context/accuracy of that quote?

Ben wrote:Have no doubt that we are listening to your concerns - even if from time to time our decisions may be contrary to your wishes. We (the mod/admin team) will continue to discuss the presence of the Atheist Quotes thread amongst ourselves.
All the best,

Ben

The moderators are awesome, and generally do a great job. Thanks!!

PS: the "Nevadans" example was not intended as a personal attack. I used to live in Nevada and love it the state. My point was that some of these anti-Christian quotes can seem just as personal and ugly. I don't want to silence anybody, I just want to be able to stand up and say, "Hey, that's kind of rude, dude."
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby danieLion » Sun May 06, 2012 5:21 am

Why would a Buddhist care one way or another about theology?
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Buckwheat » Sun May 06, 2012 5:21 am

David N. Snyder wrote:For example, there is a thread in the lounge called word association game. A post on the significance of the Satipatthana Sutta would obviously be off-topic. That doesn't stop someone from posting on the Satipatthana Sutta elsewhere in another sub-forum.

That does make sense. However, if one is in the Sattipatthana thread and makes the statement, "Buddha says mindfulness is really developed by drinking whiskey," then it would not be off-topic for another to stand up and call BS.
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Ben » Sun May 06, 2012 5:52 am

Hi Buckwheat,

Buckwheat wrote:Is it allowable for one to add a post to the atheist quotes thread citing a questionable quote and point to the thread with discussion on the context/accuracy of that quote?

What I recommend is to grab the link of the post (copy and post the thread title from the post in question), paste it in your post in the new thread with a copy of the contentious post, and then make your case why the quote is misleading. Try and stick to content ie: critiquing the quote and the inappropriateness of the quote to communicate atheist pov rather than spilling into metadiscussion (discussion about the Atheist Quotes thread, commentating on posts on this thread or DW policy). Remembering we have been allowing a full and frank discussion here regarding the Atheist Quotes thread.
I know this solution is not what you would prefer (to comment within the Atheist Quotes thread) but I hope you find it at least an acceptable compromise.
kind regards,

Ben
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Buckwheat » Sun May 06, 2012 6:03 am

That works.

Thanks,
Scott
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Dan74 » Sun May 06, 2012 12:36 pm

I have ignored both threads until now but fwiw I have seen a kind of a theism bashing/ridicule over the years that I don't find becoming of Buddhists (or anyone really), plus it sometimes ridicules aspects of other religions (like faith) that have parallels with Buddhism.

Under ToS I see

* Badmouthing of other spiritual paths is not allowed.


I didn't go far down that thread when I read this:

"I have never felt comfortable around people who talk about their feelings for Jesus, or any other deity for that matter, because they are usually none too bright... Or maybe "stupid" is a better way of saying it; but I have never seen much point in getting heavy with either stupid people or Jesus freaks, just as long as they don't bother me. In a world as weird and cruel as this one we have made for ourselves, I figure anybody who can find peace and personal happiness without ripping off somebody else deserves to be left alone."

Hunter S. Thompson


Is this not badmouthing of other spiritual paths?

I imagine a Christian who is curious about Buddhism checking out this Board. How would he/she feel?

Or imagine checking out a Christian board and seeing a nasty ridicule of the Dhamma?

Perhaps we can do better?
_/|\_
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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Ben » Sun May 06, 2012 1:02 pm

Thank you for your input, Dan.
kind regards,

Ben
"Only those who take to meditation with good intentions can be assured of success. With the development of the purity and the power of the mind backed by the insight into the ultimate truth of nature, one might be able to do a lot of things in the right direction for the benefit of mankind."

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Re: Hot Topics: Atheist Quotes

Postby Dan74 » Sun May 06, 2012 1:11 pm

No worries, Ben. I really don't want to give you guys more of a headache than you have already and frankly I am not fussed on the subject at all.

Plus I respect the Four Horsemen of the Anti-Apocalypse http://richarddawkins.net/videos/2025-the-four-horsemen-available-now-on-dvd and what they have to say may be of relevance both to theists and ourselves. I guess it's when it slides into "badmouthing" that it ceases to be useful.

Where and when this line is crossed I am more than happy to leave to your capable hands to determine. :thumbsup:
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