Cittasanto wrote:Hi Sam
what about the other aspects of the path? and although Jhana can be mistaken for Nibbana it is not Nibbana.
the Eightfold path should be developed, but it is not itself the final goal!
I am not sure if I quite understand your question "what about the other aspects of the path? "
it was more rhetorical than a question proper!
Yes, it seems logical to conclude that the personal experiences of Jhana can be mistaken
for different attainments, but if and only if other parts of the eightfold path are ignored
to the degree that it is insufficient to have samma ditthi
. I can not imagine a person attaining samma
samadhi (which should bolster right view) being mistaken about his/her experience. Isn't samma samadhi
a cause of right view and vice versa? I think the only critical thing is to find out whether one's samadhi
(or its aspects like jhana
) is samma
or not. I think it will be samma
if it is based on samma ditthi
and other factors of eightfold path. The noble eight-fold path seems to demand utmost care, balance, and skillfulness of the traveler. Those who lack that will definitely be mistaken.
I agree that the eightfold path should be developed and is not a final goal. The final goal is nibbana
. My point is that through the iteration of the eightfold path (as I described in previous path) one reaches the nibbana
which is not a path but the end of the path. (After reaching the end of the path you can turn back and see the path you traveled
I am just trying to make sense of the things as I realized that I can not practice with confused mind. I could be very wrong, and would be happy to be corrected.
Sammaditthi is the forerunner, it is, in my opinion, right view which cuts through the greed, hatred, & delusion, with the power of Sammasamadhi.
but just so we are on the same page, Jhana can refer to two different things in meditation, if you have a copy of the Samyutta Nikaya by Bhikkhu Bodhi have a look at the chapter titles, for a good example, but Jhana can mean reflection/meditation as well as Jhana as in the definition of Sammasamadhi.
Samadhi could be described like a journey, right view is like a map, everything is their detailed, mindfulness looks and sees where we are in relation to the map, and effort moves us along the journey, the driving of the car. all these require some form of concentration, which isn't Jhana as in sammasamadhi, but is jhana as in meditation, this could be described as sammasamadhi, the right amount of focus, and is what we in general use day to day, off the cushion, i.e. speaking, acting, working, intention. but it is right view which holds these in check and reduces the likeliness of regret over what we do, say, think... and it is the right amount of focus or Yoniso manasicara (sorry about spelling) which keeps effort and mindfulness working reducing the hindrences so when we aim for the four Jhanas, it is easier.
I hope that makes sense! but like others have said there are differing interpretations of Jhana, and what you were describing (as I was seeing) seamed more like wet Jhana, and dry insight, there is one and the other, and they don't mix fully at least. I do see your description isn't as black and white as I am saying here.
here it is more like the windshield, and wipers, the Sammasamadhi clears the rain off so we can see, and Sammmaditthi is making sure we are going in the right direction, with the rest of the path, as described above, moving us out of the rain (the roots of affection, hatred, delusion in gross form) and to the final destination where we can park up and out of the car (end goal.)
I hope that makes sense also.
so in my view it is a combined movement however right view is the main apparatus both the driver and map. everything else is the complete path including sammasamadhi & sammaditthi.
everyone, please feel free to question or correct!