Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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Alex123
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Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello all,

according to classical view, where does sense consciousness (ex: eye-consciousness) occurs?

Visudhimagga XV,6-7 seems to suggest that:
  • "And these various states of consciousness and its concomitants dwell in the eye, etc.,"... "And the eye, etc., are the locality of their birth because they arise just there," 7. So for these reasons too these things are called 'bases' in the sense of place of abode, store, meeting place, locality of birth, and reason."
With best wishes,

Alex
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robertk
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by robertk »

In an eye door process, for example , the cakkhu vinnana arises at the cakkhu pasada, a very subtle rupa that is situated inside the center of the physical eye. The other cittas in an eye door process arise atbthe heart base, a subtle rupa located in dependence on the blood inside the heart.
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Alex123
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by Alex123 »

Hello RobertK,
robertk wrote:In an eye door process, for example , the cakkhu vinnana arises at the cakkhu pasada, a very subtle rupa that is situated inside the center of the physical eye. The other cittas in an eye door process arise atbthe heart base, a subtle rupa located in dependence on the blood inside the heart.
Thank you for your reply. Doesn't this contradict modern science which says that vision occurs in the brain, rather than in the center of the physical eye?


With best wishes,

Alex
SamKR
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by SamKR »

Alex123 wrote:Hello RobertK,
robertk wrote:In an eye door process, for example , the cakkhu vinnana arises at the cakkhu pasada, a very subtle rupa that is situated inside the center of the physical eye. The other cittas in an eye door process arise atbthe heart base, a subtle rupa located in dependence on the blood inside the heart.
Thank you for your reply. Doesn't this contradict modern science which says that vision occurs in the brain, rather than in the center of the physical eye?


With best wishes,

Alex
Well the retina (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Retina" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;) (the part of the eye) is considered to be the part of brain.
But I think that cakkhu may not mean exactly the eye-ball but any of the parts where vision arises: could be from retina to visual cortex (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Visual_cortex" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).
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retrofuturist
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

How does this accord with the fact that with 2 eyes, what we see/experience is not 2 separate visions, but a single synthesized 3-dimensional depth-induced image? Or does Classical Theravada only allow "one-eye"-consciousness at a time?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Alex123
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by Alex123 »

SamKR wrote:But I think that cakkhu may not mean exactly the eye-ball but any of the parts where vision arises: could be from retina to visual cortex .
VsM says this:
47. 1. There is what is called the 'eye' in the world. That looks like ablue lotus petal and is surrounded by black eyelashes and varied with dark and light circles. The eye [sensitivity as meant] here is to be found in the place in the middle of the black circle surrounded by the white circle in that [feature of the] eye with its accessories where there appears the image of the bodies of those who stand in front of it. It pervades the eye's seven layers like oil sprinkled on seven layers of cotton. VsM XIV, 47
Seems to say that it is in the physical eye, not in the brain.
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mikenz66
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Alex,
Alex123 wrote: Doesn't this contradict modern science which says that vision occurs in the brain, rather than in the center of the physical eye?
Bearing in mind that this is the Classical Theravada section, I don't understand what you are trying to achieve with this line of questioning. That the Vinaya, Suttas, Abhidhamma, and Commentaries are not completely consistent with modern science is obvious. This section is for gaining a better understanding of those discourses.

:anjali:
Mike
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robertk
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by robertk »

Considering that scientists currently claim that the mind- ie all citta and cetasikas are actaully merely physical phenomena (such as neuron activity), a hilariously silly idea, I wonder why anyone would think to bother with their delusions.
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by mikenz66 »

robertk wrote:Considering that scientists currently claim that the mind- ie all citta and cetasikas are actaully merely physical phenomena (such as neuron activity), a hilariously silly idea, I wonder why anyone would think to bother with their delusions.
Well, in that case, could we get back to trying to understand the Classical view?

[Arguments about the usefulness of Abhidhamma, etc belong over here: The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=2169" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; not in the Classical Theravada section.]

Earlier Robert said:
In an eye door process, for example , the cakkhu vinnana arises at the cakkhu pasada, a very subtle rupa that is situated inside the center of the physical eye. The other cittas in an eye door process arise atbthe heart base, a subtle rupa located in dependence on the blood inside the heart.
In such explanations does "rupa" refer to something "physical" in the scientific sense? Or is it more to do with explaining how the eye door process is experienced?

Reference to the literature would be appreciated.

:anjali:
Mike
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robertk
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by robertk »

Why try to relate Rupa to what science says. The Buddha and arahats knew more about rupa than anything science will ever know.
BUT rupa can be translated as materiality. It is what is touched or smelt or seen or heard. And it is also those extremely subtle rupas such as eye base , ear base, nose base, the kammajarupa (conditioned by kamma), that are where the various types of mentality must arise.
THis is all according to Theravada but I have no texts to show you, sorry. Anyway I didn't just make this stuff up.

The idea of Alex that all 'experiences' arise in the brain can be shown to be patently false right now. Feel your toes in your shoes. Obviously the body-door consciousness is arising right in the area of the toe: as the body door is all over the body (unlike eye door which , as I said , is only situated in the center of the physical eye).

The fact that scientists, and even some buddhists, believe that all consciousness arises in the brain is a vivid demonstration of the deeply rooted nature of wrongview:
So intense is wrongview that it goes against even obvious direct experiential truths . Vipallasa, hallucination.
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mikenz66
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Robert,
robertk wrote:Why try to relate Rupa to what science says. The Buddha and arahats knew more about rupa than anything science will ever know.
Well, yes, perhaps science was the wrong word to use. What I was trying to get at was whether some modern Buddhists take translations such as "rupa" as "materiality" too literally, assume that it is something that is supposed to be "physical" (or "scientific") and then argue that the Theravada have a "realist" view, or that it is inconsistent with science, etc, etc. So I'm trying to clarify how the Theravada view these Abhidhammic descriptions.
robertk wrote: The idea of Alex that all 'experiences' arise in the brain can be shown to be patently false right now. Feel your toes in your shoes. Obviously the body-door consciousness is arising right in the area of the toe: as the body door is all over the body (unlike eye door which , as I said , is only situated in the center of the physical eye).
And if we view the above description as "how we experience things at those particular sense doors", not an attempt at a scientific description of anatomy and physiology, then there is no problem.
Is that a reasonable thing to do?

:anjali:
Mike
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robertk
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

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No Mike, it is not the right way to think about it. What you seem to be doing is trying to fit the Dhamma into some sort of 'experience is all' type world view.

The Dhamma explains reality: phenomema that are experienced and also phenomena that are not experienced. For example you most likely can't experience the subtle rupa called cakkhu pasada (eye base) and yet it exists, it arirses for an infinitely short time then is gone, and replaced by another , diffrent cakkhu pasada, and this occurs repeatedly, over trillions of moments each day: provide that the kamma producing this rupa, keeps producing (again you can't be aware of that kamma- done in the past, that is the cause for the cakkhu pasada now) .
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Polar Bear
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

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robertk wrote:Why try to relate Rupa to what science says. The Buddha and arahats knew more about rupa than anything science will ever know.
BUT rupa can be translated as materiality. It is what is touched or smelt or seen or heard. And it is also those extremely subtle rupas such as eye base , ear base, nose base, the kammajarupa (conditioned by kamma), that are where the various types of mentality must arise.
THis is all according to Theravada but I have no texts to show you, sorry. Anyway I didn't just make this stuff up.

The idea of Alex that all 'experiences' arise in the brain can be shown to be patently false right now. Feel your toes in your shoes. Obviously the body-door consciousness is arising right in the area of the toe: as the body door is all over the body (unlike eye door which , as I said , is only situated in the center of the physical eye).

The fact that scientists, and even some buddhists, believe that all consciousness arises in the brain is a vivid demonstration of the deeply rooted nature of wrongview:
So intense is wrongview that it goes against even obvious direct experiential truths . Vipallasa, hallucination.
You only feel your toes because your nervous system sends signals to your brain telling it that the toes are there. You have have eye-consciousness when light hits the eye and then that information is processed by the brain in 3 dimensions. All consciousness arises in the brain. Without the brain there is no consciousness in the body or the eyes,ears,nose, tongue, intellect. Eye consciousness occurs in the brain and is dependent on the brain. Be real, seriously. There is a reason people die when they get shot in the head. There is also a reason paraplegics can't feel their legs. Are you aware that there are people with toes that can't feel them. That is because there brain is cut off from receiving signals from those areas.

The suttas don't say that the eye-consciousness has to arise at the eye, it just says that is dependent on the eye, form, and contact. It just so happens that the consciousness then arises in the brain due to those 3 things

The abhidhamma may be a different story, but I don't see the suttas saying the eye-consciousness necessarily arises in the eye
Last edited by Polar Bear on Wed May 09, 2012 7:28 am, edited 3 times in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by mikenz66 »

Not so much "experience is all", but "experience is all we can experience". I certainly don't buy arguments that the Buddha taught that there is no external reality.

Thanks for the clarifications.

:anjali:
Mike
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mikenz66
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by mikenz66 »

Dear PB,
polarbuddha101 wrote: You only feel your toes because your nervous system sends signals to your brain telling it that the toes are there. ...
Those are necessary conditions, but the Classical Theravada view would deny that that is all there is to it.

Please remember the guidelines for this section of the Forum:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=19&t=373" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Abhidhamma and Classical Theravada sub-forums are specialized venues for the discussion of the Abhidhamma and the classical Mahavihara understanding of the Dhamma. Within these forums the Pali Tipitaka and its commentaries are for discussion purposes treated as authoritative. These forums are for the benefit of those members who wish to develop a deeper understanding of these texts and are not for the challenging of the Abhidhamma and/or Theravada commentarial literature.
...
Arguments from a Scientific POV are welcome in:
The great Abhidhamma Pitaka authenticity debate
http://dhammawheel.com/viewforum.php?f=16" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
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