Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Exploring the Dhamma, as understood from the perspective of the ancient Pali commentaries.
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robertk
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by robertk »

Mike, glad to hear that! Sometimes I read this website and it seems to be the norm that "buddhists' think the world is some sort of solipsistic illusion.

Scary that Buddhism seems to be declining so rapidly< or is it just that with the internet people are now free to express their views that in past times would have remained personal?

The Dhamma can be expressed in various ways, so we need to use concepts even to explain realities.
http://www.abhidhamma.org/sujin3.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
The Abhidhammattha Vibhavani (Book 8) distinguishes between six kinds of concepts that are names, nama-pannatti (see Visuddhimagga VIII, note 11).

1. Vijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is real, for example the words rupa, nama, vedana (feeling), or sanna (perception) 10.

2. Avijjamana pannattis, concepts which make known what is not real, such as the words Thai or foreigner. These concepts do not represent absolute realities, citta and cetasika which are nama, and rupa. Thai or foreigner are not real in the absolute sense, they are conventional realities, sammutti dhammas. Could akusala citta11 (unwholesome consciousness) be Thai or foreign? Akusala citta is a paramattha dhamma (a reality), it is a dhamma which has its own characteristic, it is not Thai or foreign.

3. Vijjamanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of the non-existent based on the existent. There is the expression "the person with the six abhinnas."12 The six abhinnas are real but person is not real. Thus this concept stands for what is real and for what is not real.

4. Avijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of the existent based on the non-existent. There is the expression "woman's voice". The sound is real, but the woman is not real.

5. Vijjamanena vijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is real based on what is real. There is the term cakkhu-vinnana (eye-consciousness). Cakkhu (eye) is a reality, namely the cakkhu-pasada-rupa (eyesense, a reality sensitive to colour or visible object), and vinnana (consciousness) is also a reality, namely the reality which experiences.

6. Avija amanena avijjamana pannattis, concepts of what is not real based on what is not real. There is the expression "the kings son". Both king and son are not real, they are sammutti dhammas, conventional realities.
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robertk
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

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. All consciousness arises in the brain. Without the brain there is no consciousness in the body or the eyes,ears,nose, tongue, intellect. Eye consciousness occurs in the brain and is dependent on the brain. Be real, seriously. There is a reason people die when they get shot in the head. There is also a reason paraplegics can't feel their legs. Are you aware that there are people with toes that can't feel them. That is because there brain is cut off from receiving signals from those areas.

The suttas don't say that the eye-consciousness has to arise at the eye, it just says that is dependent on the eye, form, and contact. It just so happens that the consciousness then arises in the brain due to those 3 things

The abhidhamma may be a different story, but I don't see the suttas saying the eye-consciousness necessarily arises in the eye
Please give me even one suggestion from sutta or commentary indicatiing your contention that eye consciousness arises in the brain.
You suggest that I "BE real, Seriously". I am being very real : perhaps you might wish to rethink your understandning of what the Buddha taught and life in general.

Let's say someone knew nothing about computers. They played with their computer and pulled out a few wires, it stopped working properly. They then claimed that the 'heart' of the computer was the wiring. Would they be right or would it be the pentium processor, that they never even looked at that, that is the seat of calculations. This is where 'science' is with regard to their uniderstanding of mentality.


And please do check" does feeling in your toe really arise in the brain? Or is it an idea so ingrained becuase of what you learnt from science or school or even from views accumulated from past lives..
Oh and if someone is shot in the heart, or emptied of all blood, how long to they live, as a matter of interest?
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Polar Bear
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by Polar Bear »

robertk wrote:
. All consciousness arises in the brain. Without the brain there is no consciousness in the body or the eyes,ears,nose, tongue, intellect. Eye consciousness occurs in the brain and is dependent on the brain. Be real, seriously. There is a reason people die when they get shot in the head. There is also a reason paraplegics can't feel their legs. Are you aware that there are people with toes that can't feel them. That is because there brain is cut off from receiving signals from those areas.

The suttas don't say that the eye-consciousness has to arise at the eye, it just says that is dependent on the eye, form, and contact. It just so happens that the consciousness then arises in the brain due to those 3 things

The abhidhamma may be a different story, but I don't see the suttas saying the eye-consciousness necessarily arises in the eye
Please give me even one suggestion from sutta or commentary indicatiing your contention that eye consciousness arises in the brain.
You suggest that I "BE real, Seriously". I am being very real : perhaps you might wish to rethink your understandning of what the Buddha taught and life in general.

Let's say someone knew nothing about computers. They played with their computer and pulled out a few wires, it stopped working properly. They then claimed that the 'heart' of the computer was the wiring. Would they be right or would it be the pentium processor, that they never even looked at that, that is the seat of calculations. This is where 'science' is with regard to their uniderstanding of mentality.


And please do check" does feeling in your toe really arise in the brain? Or is it an idea so ingrained becuase of what you learnt from science or school or even from views accumulated from past lives..
Oh and if someone is shot in the heart, or emptied of all blood, how long to they live, as a matter of interest?
I don't think I'm supposed to be answering you in this thread since this is the classical area but whatever, I'm sure the moderators won't mind one final response.

The suttas and the commentaries do not mention the brain because people of that time were ignorant that the brain played such a central role in processing. However, we need not let that fact interfere with dependent origination because eye-consciousness does still depend on the eye, form/light, and contact, it just so happens that the consciousness arises in the brain and not in the eye as iron age monks might have had you think.

As far as your computer comparison goes, that's just it, thanks for proving my point. You are saying that consciousness arises in the wires instead of in the processor. The eye has wires which run into the brain, so does your body, they are called nerve endings, this system of wires runs up to the brain where all the information is processed. The reason one dies when they lose blood or are shot in the heart is because the heart and blood work together to deliver fresh oxygen to the brain. This is why people who have heart attacks can be revived if the brain isn't starved of oxygen for too long and actually, if you slow down the body's metabolism by making the body cooler, the brain can go for even longer without oxygen because it is absorbing it at a slower rate.

I have no need to rethink about life in general as thinking about life in general is something I do everyday, it is not something i re-do. I evaluate and then I evaluate some more, I do not re-evaluate. Do not blindly adhere to what you think the Buddha taught, he was not omniscient, he did not know everything and basing all your views on some books written down hundreds of years after he died is dogmatic and unfit for somebody who wishes to realize truth for themselves, I would suggest you re-evaluate your epistemological grounds for making assertions about the way the human body and mind function.

As far as what the Buddha taught, the only thing that is important is how to end suffering by developing the noble eight-fold path and understanding the way to end suffering through that path, which last time I checked, didn't say one had to blindly adhere to anatomical and physiological claims from people who had 1% of the knowledge we have today with regards to those matters. If you hinge your whole practice on clinging to obviously untrue propositions then you will never be able to unbind yourself from false views and let go of the identity you've built up around those associations. I wish you the best of the luck towards the goal and hope we can all one day come to realize liberation and I hope you realize that scientific facts are not a hindrance to that goal. However, it should be noted that neither of our positions on that matter really pertain to the goal, ultimately, speculating about such trivial matters is just something sidetracking us from the actual purpose in following the Buddha's teaching, which is simply to become unbound from reacting to feelings that create emotions that lead to clinging to and identifying with impermanent phenomena, once we do that we can experience the unconditioned, the deathless, Nibbana.

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
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retrofuturist
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
robertk wrote:Please give me even one suggestion from sutta or commentary indicatiing your contention that eye consciousness arises in the brain.
There is certainly no support for that particular contention in the Visuddhimagga... https://www.google.com.au/search?source ... imagga+pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Brain.

This is the lumps of marrow to be found inside the skull. As to colour, it is white, the colour of the flesh of a toadstool; it can also be said that it is the colour of turned milk that has not yet become curd. As to shape, it is the shape of its location. As to direction, it belongs to the upper direction. As to location, it is to be found inside the skull, like four lumps of dough put together to correspond with the skull's four sutured sections. As to delimination, it is bounded by the skull's inner surface and by what appertains to brain...

...

Snot.

This is impurity that trickles out from the brain. As to colour, it is the colour of a young palmyra kernel. As to shape, it is the shape of its location. As to direction, it belongs to the upper direction. As to location, it is to be found filling the nostril cavaties. And it is not always to be found stored there; but rather, just as though a man tied up curd in a lotus leaf, which he then pricked with a thorn underneath, and whey oozed out and dripped, so too, when beings weep or suffer a disturbance of elements produced by wrong food or temperature, then the brain inside the head turns into stale phlegm, and it oozes out and comes down by an opening in the palate, and it fills the nostrils and stays there or trickles out.
From the above, it is evident that the brain is not where eye-consciousness arises, otherwise having a runny nose would cause temporary blindness, and we know that clearly this is not the case. Similarly with the other sense consciousnesses.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by mikenz66 »

Which I guess all goes to show that Buddhism is not science, and doesn't purport to be.

So perhaps we should get back to the Classical Theravada interpretation of sense consciousness, and how to use that understanding to end suffering.

:anjali:
Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:So perhaps we should get back to the Classical Theravada interpretation of sense consciousness, and how to use that understanding to end suffering.
Satipatthana Sutta commentary
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#sense" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
THE SENSE-BASES

After explaining the contemplation of mental objects by way of the aggregates the Master said: "And, further, o bhikkhus," in order to explain the contemplation of mental objects by way of the sense-bases.

Chasu ajjhattika bahiresu ayatanesu = "In (the mental objects of) the six internal and the six external sense-bases." The eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind are the six internal sense-bases, and material form, mind, smell, tastes, tactual object, and mental object are the six external sense-bases.

Cakkhum pajanati = "(He) understands the eye." He understands the sensory apparatus of the eye, by way of its own distinct function and salient characteristic.

Rupe pajanati = "(He) understands material form (objects) that are visible." He understands material form arising from the four producers of corporeality, namely, karma, consciousness, climate and nutriment [kamma citta utu ahara], by way of their own distinctive function and salient characteristic.

Yam tadubhayam paticcca uppajjati samyojanam = "The fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms)." He understands according to distinct function and characteristic the tenfold fetter that arises dependent on both eye and forms — the tenfold fetter of sense-desire, resentment, pride, speculative theory, doubt, belief in rites and ceremonies, the desire to go on existing, envy, avarice and ignorance.

"How does this tenfold fettering arise?" asks one.

The fetter of sensuality arises for him who by way of sensuous enjoyment takes delight in a pleasant sense-object become visible at the eye-door. For him who is annoyed or angry at the sight of an unpleasant object, the fetter of resentment arises, and the fetter of pride arises in him who thinks: No one but me is able to consider the object wisely. The fetter of speculative theory comes to be in him who takes material form to be permanent and everlasting. The fetter of doubt arises in him who thinks in this way: Is the material form a being or a being's? The fetter of the desire to go on existing arises in him who wishes thus: To be sure, in a favorable state of existence this material form will become easy of access. The fetter of rites and ceremonies arises in him who undertakes to perform rites and ceremonies thinking: In the future it will be possible to obtain such an object as this by taking up the observance of rites and ceremonies. The fetter of envy arises in him who contemplates grudgingly: Should no others get this material form, it would be good, indeed. The fetter of avarice arises in one who stints for another the material form belonging to one.

The fetter of ignorance arises (with all the previously mentioned fetters), with all sensuous passion and the like, by way of the relation of conascent nescience.

Yathaca anupannassa samyojanassa uppado hoti tañca pajanati = "He understands how the arising of the non-arisen (tenfold) fetter comes to be." He understands that the (tenfold) fetter had not arisen earlier owing to some cause of non-occurrence.

Yatha ca uppannassa samyojanassa pahanam hoti tañca pajanati = "He understands how the abandoning of the arisen (tenfold) fetter comes to be." He understands the reason for the abandoning of just the (tenfold) fetter arisen through previous non-abandoning or through occurrence.

Yatha ca pahinassa samojanassa ayatim anuppado hoti tañca pajanati = "He understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned (tenfold) fetter comes to be." He understands the reason for the non-arising in the future of even the (tenfold) fetter abandoned by way of rejection of separate factors through right reflection [tadangavasena] and through absorption [vikkhambhana vasena].

Owing to what reason does the tenfold fettering cease to arise in the future finally?

The path of stream-winning or the first stage of awakening is the reason for final cessation of the five fetters of speculative theory, doubt, rites and ceremonies, envy, and avarice. The path of once-returning or the second stage of awakening is the reason for the final cessation of sensuality and resentment of a gross kind and the residum of these two fetters finally ceases by reason of the statement of the path of never-returning, the third stage of awakening. The fact which makes the fetter of pride, of the desire to go on existing, and of ignorance to cease finally in the future is the path of final purification, arahantship, the fourth state of awakening.

The same is the method of exegesis in sotañca pajanati sadde ca pajanati = "He understands the ear and sounds." Further, in this connection, the talk on the sense-bases in full should be understood as stated by the commentator in the Path of Purity.

Iti ajjhattam = "Thus internally." The bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects by laying hold of the internal sense-bases in his own mental objects or in another's or laying hold of the external sense-bases in another's mental objects or in his own or at one time in his own and at another time in another's mental objects.

Origination and dissolution should be brought forward and connected here by the extended application of the method indicated by the words: "From the origin of ignorance the origin of the eye" to the sense-bases of material form in the aggregate of materiality, to the mental sense-base in the aggregate of consciousness, and to the sense-base of the mental object in the other non-material aggregates, according to the method of exegesis already stated by the commentator. The supramundane states should not be taken. From here onward the exposition is according to the method already shown by the commentator.

The two groups of six sense-bases are stated by way of determining the sense-doors and the sense-objects of arising of sixfold consciousness. Of the consciousness or mind aggregate included in a course of cognition of eye-consciousness, just the eye-base is the "door" of origin, and the base of the material form is the object. So it is in the case of the others. But of the sixth sense-base the part of the mind-base called the life-continum, the unconscious mind, is the "door" of origin [chatthassa pana bhavangamanasankhato manayatanekadeso uppatti dvaram]. And in a particular or special way the mind-object base is the object [asadharananca dhammayatanam arammanam].

Dependent on both: The eye becomes a condition by way of decisive support and the material forms, the objects, become a condition by way of objective predominance and objective decisive support [cakkhum upanissaya paccayavasena paccayabhutam rupe arammanadhipati arammanupanissaya vasena paccayabhute ca paticca].
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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robertk
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by robertk »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

How does this accord with the fact that with 2 eyes, what we see/experience is not 2 separate visions, but a single synthesized 3-dimensional depth-induced image? Or does Classical Theravada only allow "one-eye"-consciousness at a time?

Metta,
Retro. :)
yes only one at a time. But when there is even a glimpse of say a flower, even before registering it mentally as a flower , there have been millions of eyedoor and mind door processes, comprising one moment of seeing, followed by many moments of eye door process (which are not seeing) then bhavanga cittas , mindoor processes, repeated again and again.
Except for the actual cakkhu vinnana (seeing consciousness) moments the rest are dark as there is no visible object. So even with eyes open our life is lived in a dark world: where what is left is a nimitta of the actual visible object, which continues to be processed by minddoor processes until there is the knowing of flower, or red flower, or tulip etc.
Coyote
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by Coyote »

This is a very interesting topic.
robertk wrote: there have been millions of eyedoor and mind door processes, comprising one moment of seeing, followed by many moments of eye door process (which are not seeing) then bhavanga cittas , mindoor processes, repeated again and again.
Except for the actual cakkhu vinnana (seeing consciousness) moments the rest are dark as there is no visible object. So even with eyes open our life is lived in a dark world: where what is left is a nimitta of the actual visible object, which continues to be processed by minddoor processes until there is the knowing of flower, or red flower, or tulip etc.
I wonder if you could clarify exactly what you mean here by having "eye-door processes" which are not seeing - do you mean eye-door proceeses which go on before the moment of eye-consciousness that we are not aware of? Can we become aware of these processes?
I presume that when you say that seeing is only one moment of seeing consciousness followed by nimitta of the object that this is repeatedly happening many hundereds of times each moment that we would usually say we are seeing the object. That you are not talking in the range of seconds but very quick moments of time.

Interesting in any case.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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robertk
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Post by robertk »

Hi
In one eyedoor process there are 17 moments of citta, but only the first, the cakkhu vinnana is actually contacting visible object color. Then After that process there are moments of bhavanga citta, them many mindoor processes, then another eyedor process may occur. This has to happen millions of times in succession ( and it does) before their is any recognition of the object( this is a flower etc)
As you rightly suggest it is happening over a very shorttime frame,nbillions of cittas arise and pass away during a fingersnap.
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