Where does sense consciousness occurs?

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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Postby retrofuturist » Wed May 09, 2012 8:59 am

Greetings,

mikenz66 wrote:So perhaps we should get back to the Classical Theravada interpretation of sense consciousness, and how to use that understanding to end suffering.


Satipatthana Sutta commentary
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#sense

THE SENSE-BASES

After explaining the contemplation of mental objects by way of the aggregates the Master said: "And, further, o bhikkhus," in order to explain the contemplation of mental objects by way of the sense-bases.

Chasu ajjhattika bahiresu ayatanesu = "In (the mental objects of) the six internal and the six external sense-bases." The eye, the ear, the nose, the tongue, the body and the mind are the six internal sense-bases, and material form, mind, smell, tastes, tactual object, and mental object are the six external sense-bases.

Cakkhum pajanati = "(He) understands the eye." He understands the sensory apparatus of the eye, by way of its own distinct function and salient characteristic.

Rupe pajanati = "(He) understands material form (objects) that are visible." He understands material form arising from the four producers of corporeality, namely, karma, consciousness, climate and nutriment [kamma citta utu ahara], by way of their own distinctive function and salient characteristic.

Yam tadubhayam paticcca uppajjati samyojanam = "The fetter that arises dependent on both (eye and forms)." He understands according to distinct function and characteristic the tenfold fetter that arises dependent on both eye and forms — the tenfold fetter of sense-desire, resentment, pride, speculative theory, doubt, belief in rites and ceremonies, the desire to go on existing, envy, avarice and ignorance.

"How does this tenfold fettering arise?" asks one.

The fetter of sensuality arises for him who by way of sensuous enjoyment takes delight in a pleasant sense-object become visible at the eye-door. For him who is annoyed or angry at the sight of an unpleasant object, the fetter of resentment arises, and the fetter of pride arises in him who thinks: No one but me is able to consider the object wisely. The fetter of speculative theory comes to be in him who takes material form to be permanent and everlasting. The fetter of doubt arises in him who thinks in this way: Is the material form a being or a being's? The fetter of the desire to go on existing arises in him who wishes thus: To be sure, in a favorable state of existence this material form will become easy of access. The fetter of rites and ceremonies arises in him who undertakes to perform rites and ceremonies thinking: In the future it will be possible to obtain such an object as this by taking up the observance of rites and ceremonies. The fetter of envy arises in him who contemplates grudgingly: Should no others get this material form, it would be good, indeed. The fetter of avarice arises in one who stints for another the material form belonging to one.

The fetter of ignorance arises (with all the previously mentioned fetters), with all sensuous passion and the like, by way of the relation of conascent nescience.

Yathaca anupannassa samyojanassa uppado hoti tañca pajanati = "He understands how the arising of the non-arisen (tenfold) fetter comes to be." He understands that the (tenfold) fetter had not arisen earlier owing to some cause of non-occurrence.

Yatha ca uppannassa samyojanassa pahanam hoti tañca pajanati = "He understands how the abandoning of the arisen (tenfold) fetter comes to be." He understands the reason for the abandoning of just the (tenfold) fetter arisen through previous non-abandoning or through occurrence.

Yatha ca pahinassa samojanassa ayatim anuppado hoti tañca pajanati = "He understands how the non-arising in the future of the abandoned (tenfold) fetter comes to be." He understands the reason for the non-arising in the future of even the (tenfold) fetter abandoned by way of rejection of separate factors through right reflection [tadangavasena] and through absorption [vikkhambhana vasena].

Owing to what reason does the tenfold fettering cease to arise in the future finally?

The path of stream-winning or the first stage of awakening is the reason for final cessation of the five fetters of speculative theory, doubt, rites and ceremonies, envy, and avarice. The path of once-returning or the second stage of awakening is the reason for the final cessation of sensuality and resentment of a gross kind and the residum of these two fetters finally ceases by reason of the statement of the path of never-returning, the third stage of awakening. The fact which makes the fetter of pride, of the desire to go on existing, and of ignorance to cease finally in the future is the path of final purification, arahantship, the fourth state of awakening.

The same is the method of exegesis in sotañca pajanati sadde ca pajanati = "He understands the ear and sounds." Further, in this connection, the talk on the sense-bases in full should be understood as stated by the commentator in the Path of Purity.

Iti ajjhattam = "Thus internally." The bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects by laying hold of the internal sense-bases in his own mental objects or in another's or laying hold of the external sense-bases in another's mental objects or in his own or at one time in his own and at another time in another's mental objects.

Origination and dissolution should be brought forward and connected here by the extended application of the method indicated by the words: "From the origin of ignorance the origin of the eye" to the sense-bases of material form in the aggregate of materiality, to the mental sense-base in the aggregate of consciousness, and to the sense-base of the mental object in the other non-material aggregates, according to the method of exegesis already stated by the commentator. The supramundane states should not be taken. From here onward the exposition is according to the method already shown by the commentator.

The two groups of six sense-bases are stated by way of determining the sense-doors and the sense-objects of arising of sixfold consciousness. Of the consciousness or mind aggregate included in a course of cognition of eye-consciousness, just the eye-base is the "door" of origin, and the base of the material form is the object. So it is in the case of the others. But of the sixth sense-base the part of the mind-base called the life-continum, the unconscious mind, is the "door" of origin [chatthassa pana bhavangamanasankhato manayatanekadeso uppatti dvaram]. And in a particular or special way the mind-object base is the object [asadharananca dhammayatanam arammanam].

Dependent on both: The eye becomes a condition by way of decisive support and the material forms, the objects, become a condition by way of objective predominance and objective decisive support [cakkhum upanissaya paccayavasena paccayabhutam rupe arammanadhipati arammanupanissaya vasena paccayabhute ca paticca].

Metta,
Retro. :)
If you have asked me of the origination of unease, then I shall explain it to you in accordance with my understanding:
Whatever various forms of unease there are in the world, They originate founded in encumbering accumulation. (Pārāyanavagga)


Exalted in mind, just open and clearly aware, the recluse trained in the ways of the sages:
One who is such, calmed and ever mindful, He has no sorrows! -- Udana IV, 7


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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Postby robertk » Wed May 09, 2012 12:40 pm

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings,

How does this accord with the fact that with 2 eyes, what we see/experience is not 2 separate visions, but a single synthesized 3-dimensional depth-induced image? Or does Classical Theravada only allow "one-eye"-consciousness at a time?

Metta,
Retro. :)

yes only one at a time. But when there is even a glimpse of say a flower, even before registering it mentally as a flower , there have been millions of eyedoor and mind door processes, comprising one moment of seeing, followed by many moments of eye door process (which are not seeing) then bhavanga cittas , mindoor processes, repeated again and again.
Except for the actual cakkhu vinnana (seeing consciousness) moments the rest are dark as there is no visible object. So even with eyes open our life is lived in a dark world: where what is left is a nimitta of the actual visible object, which continues to be processed by minddoor processes until there is the knowing of flower, or red flower, or tulip etc.
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Postby Coyote » Wed May 09, 2012 2:00 pm

This is a very interesting topic.

robertk wrote: there have been millions of eyedoor and mind door processes, comprising one moment of seeing, followed by many moments of eye door process (which are not seeing) then bhavanga cittas , mindoor processes, repeated again and again.
Except for the actual cakkhu vinnana (seeing consciousness) moments the rest are dark as there is no visible object. So even with eyes open our life is lived in a dark world: where what is left is a nimitta of the actual visible object, which continues to be processed by minddoor processes until there is the knowing of flower, or red flower, or tulip etc.


I wonder if you could clarify exactly what you mean here by having "eye-door processes" which are not seeing - do you mean eye-door proceeses which go on before the moment of eye-consciousness that we are not aware of? Can we become aware of these processes?
I presume that when you say that seeing is only one moment of seeing consciousness followed by nimitta of the object that this is repeatedly happening many hundereds of times each moment that we would usually say we are seeing the object. That you are not talking in the range of seconds but very quick moments of time.

Interesting in any case.
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Re: Where does sense consciousness occurs?

Postby robertk » Wed May 09, 2012 2:14 pm

Hi
In one eyedoor process there are 17 moments of citta, but only the first, the cakkhu vinnana is actually contacting visible object color. Then After that process there are moments of bhavanga citta, them many mindoor processes, then another eyedor process may occur. This has to happen millions of times in succession ( and it does) before their is any recognition of the object( this is a flower etc)
As you rightly suggest it is happening over a very shorttime frame,nbillions of cittas arise and pass away during a fingersnap.
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