Secular view - The Future of Religion

A discussion on all aspects of Theravāda Buddhism
Coyote
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by Coyote »

Alex123 wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Many buddhist's seem to be like Sati the fisherman's son and they think their consciousness is going to wander on after they die,


Since this is about the future of religion, it is appropriate to consider that misunderstandings about rebirth occur because of inaccurate teaching and/or inaccurate learning, not because of some inherent flaw in the teaching. The teaching is quite clear as to what is rebirth is and what it is not, it is then up to us to understand this properly and pass it on to the next generation. Better teaching of concepts such as rebirth would mean that people don't have this misunderstanding, it is not down to the teachings irrationality or incompatibility with science or a modern materialistic world-view.
"If beings knew, as I know, the results of giving & sharing, they would not eat without having given, nor would the stain of miserliness overcome their minds. Even if it were their last bite, their last mouthful, they would not eat without having shared."
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rowboat
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by rowboat »

Relevant:

Stanley Fish on Evidence in Science and Religion:

http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... right-one/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
http://opinionator.blogs.nytimes.com/20 ... -part-two/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But this Baconian model of scientific progress in which data sits waiting to be revealed by superior instruments is now, the Princeton philosopher Thomas Kelly tells us, “universally rejected by philosophers” (“Evidence,” in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy). “It is now appreciated,” Kelly continues, “that at any given time, which theories are accepted … typically plays a crucial role in guiding the subsequent search for evidence which bears on these theories.”

In the stronger versions of the shift Kelly reports, “evidence which bears on these theories” would be replaced by “evidence that becomes available in the light of those theories.” The strong thesis is that rather than being confirmed or disconfirmed by independent evidence, theories determine what will count as evidence. And therefore, as Kelly notes, if theory is prior to evidence, then the idea of an “appeal to evidence that could be appreciated by both sides” becomes problematical.
It was at this point that Dawkins said something amazing, although neither he nor anyone else picked up on it. He said: in the arena of science you can invoke Professor So-and-So’s study published in 2008, “you can actually cite chapter and verse.”
:jumping:

***
All of this raises the question: Isn't every Rational Buddhist somehow obligated to be working away very hard at inventing some sort of e-meter-like device that can detect jhana? And while they are at it, how about throwing together a TSA wand that can determine if someone is actually a deva? Who else will protect my irrational anecdotes, and all the other frightened anecdotes? Because right now all of these poor anecdotes are huddled together in a big dubious mass against the Doors of Reality, and I'm sure they can hear The Science Wolf breathing heavily on the other side.

;)
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
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Kim OHara
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by Kim OHara »

daverupa wrote:
daverupa wrote:The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. Have you any data?
Kim O'Hara wrote:Yes:
Kim O'Hara wrote:My experience.
Does yours differ?
Do you have more?

:namaste:
Kim
My personal anecdotes are irrelevant to any valid conclusion about the relative "nicety" of religious v. secular individuals, as are yours. Variable control (i.e. awareness of as many inputting causes and conditions as one can be) is wholly absent here, and as such your conclusion is an unwarranted generalization. Replace the contrasting terms with race or gender or caste terms, and the argument's flawed structure becomes apparent.
Hi, Daverupa,
Your comment, "The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'. Have you any data?" was a dismissive and unwarranted wisecrack. I don't want to pull this thread off-topic by spending too much time on it but I feel I must answer it seriously since you seem not to have taken the hint in my first response.
Coyote asked a question. I answered, very explicitly, on the basis of my experience. I didn't present any anecdotes.
I will maintain, however, that my experience is, in fact, data. Each personal interaction I participate in gives me a new data point, as do many that I observe. It happens that I am a teacher who has worked in state schools, Catholic schools, a Jewish school, Protestant schools and independent schools, meeting and working with teachers, students and parents whose affiliations generally reflect those locations.
My experience does add up to more data than most people's. On the other hand, I know that it is limited. On the other other hand, I did not claim it was universal.
I didn't present a 'conclusion', and the point of view I did present was not 'unwarranted' but fully supported by the evidence it was (explicitly) based upon.

:namaste:
Kim

Now ...
:focus:

[Edit: fixed up 'quote' tags :embarassed: ]
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Kim OHara
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by Kim OHara »

rowboat wrote: All of this raises the question: Isn't every Rational Buddhist somehow obligated to be working away very hard at inventing some sort of e-meter-like device that can detect jhana? And while they are at it, how about throwing together a TSA wand that can determine if someone is actually a deva? Who else will protect my irrational anecdotes, and all the other frightened anecdotes? Because right now all of these poor anecdotes are huddled together in a big dubious mass against the Doors of Reality, and I'm sure they can hear The Science Wolf breathing heavily on the other side.

;)
Maybe my previous post, to daverupa, wasn't so far off-topic after all. :tongue:
One of the differences between science and not-science is that science typically demands 'objective' evidence and dismisses personal experience as 'merely anecdotal', with a heavy emphasis on the 'merely'. But there are whole swathes of subjects in which 'objective' evidence is simply unavailable, starting with what goes on in our minds.
Is denial of the only available evidence, i.e. anecdotal evidence or personal experience, sensible?
No, because it means that we can't talk about those subjects at all.
If science wants to extend its reach to these subjects, it will have to alter its definition of 'evidence', and/or develop the jhana-meter and TSA-wand.
Until then, science should, logically, admit its ignorance and its inability to investigate these areas - and keep out.
I think I said something like that before, actually.

:namaste:
Kim
danieLion
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by danieLion »

Kim O'Hara wrote:It's a difficult set of issues to balance.
How is "balance" called for?
Kim O'Hara wrote:...science doesn't know everything...
Science doesn't "know".
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rowboat
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by rowboat »

Maybe my previous post, to daverupa, wasn't so far off-topic after all.
My only concern is whether this previous post is able to comfort my anecdotes. They remain huddled for the time being but they certainly still require reassurance. I have it on authority to publish that they are now willing to also accept a machine that goes beep. Provided the beeps actually mean something.

:rofl:
One of the differences between science and not-science is that science typically demands 'objective' evidence and dismisses personal experience as 'merely anecdotal', with a heavy emphasis on the 'merely'. But there are whole swathes of subjects in which 'objective' evidence is simply unavailable, starting with what goes on in our minds.
Agreed. Dr David Chalmers in a very interesting and instructive discussion on the hard problem in neuroscience, among other things: http://bloggingheads.tv/videos/1187" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


If science wants to extend its reach to these subjects, it will have to alter its definition of 'evidence', and/or develop the jhana-meter and TSA-wand.
(Calm down, anecdotes. It's not going to happen.)
Until then, science should, logically, admit its ignorance and its inability to investigate these areas - and keep out.
I think I said something like that before, actually.
Stephen Jay Gould. Non overlapping magesteria: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And that's the thing. Scientists are not unable to investigate the validity claims about things like jhana (and rebirth...etc.) But as you point out, these are entirely different modes of knowing. So if you want to know something about the physical/material world you can follow the basic injunctions proscribed by empirical science, but if you want to know about jhana (or your previous lives etc.) then there are a completely different set of injunctions to follow. These injunctions are to be found among the teachings of the Buddha and his noble disciples.
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
Ud 5.5
daverupa
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by daverupa »

The problem with accepting subjective religious experience as valid evidence for objective claims is the inherent contradiction between those experiences - that is to say, they contradict one another and cannot all obtain. Generating examples is easily done.

Rather than crafting Secular Tricorders, however, the approach being examined is to set aside those things which are present in the Suttas but which strongly reflect the religious milieu within which they took shape. It would be nice to have examples of this process in action: I submit, by way of illustration, that the 32 marks of a great man adds not one whit to an understanding of the Dhamma.

To take a hard line on the marks, demanding literalism for example, seems absurd; to ignore it, but only it, seems arbitrary. To suggest a middle ground of it being some manner of a symbolic representation (perhaps solely amongst historical populations for which this model could be skillfully used) might gain traction, but this opens the door for reading rebirth statements in a similar light.

---

The secular approach here is that Dhamma practice can begin and proceed while these things have been set aside because they are inessential; their absence does not infringe on the Dhamma. My signature, below, offers an example of the Buddha doing just this. Rebirth and kamma is at issue, but the agnostic confusion is rendered toothless: the method of arousing gladness is taking joy in the fact that practice of the kammapatha and the brahmaviharas renders one unimpeachable despite uncertainty and perplexity with respect to pre-birth/post-death states and their interaction with kamma. Here, not even "right view with effluents" is supported above other views - it is lumped with three other views, and the whole lot dealt with equivalently.

This strikes me as a robust pedagogical precedent for secular Buddhists.
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
danieLion
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by danieLion »

rowboat wrote:And that's the thing. Scientists are not unable to investigate the validity claims about things like jhana (and rebirth...etc.)
This is an instance of what Karl Popper called falsifiability which bodes well for jhana's, e.g., ... validity.
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mikenz66
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by mikenz66 »

daverupa wrote: Rather than crafting Secular Tricorders, however, the approach being examined is to set aside those things which are present in the Suttas but which strongly reflect the religious milieu within which they took shape. I
Speaking as a scientist this seems like an extremely odd approach: to throw out points of agreement. I really don't get that argument at all. It seems contrary to the way knowledge develops in almost any field I'm familiar with. It is common for several people to come up with solutions to problems independently at about the same time...

Taken to an extreme, one would discount all teachings on dana and sila, since those are in agreement with most other religious systems at the time...

Since these Secular Buddhists are presumably not complete dunces, perhaps I'm missing something...

:anjali:
Mike
danieLion
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by danieLion »

daverupa wrote:The problem with accepting subjective religious experience as valid evidence for objective claims is the inherent contradiction between those experiences - that is to say, they contradict one another and cannot all obtain. Generating examples is easily done.
The objective/subjective dichotomy is flimsy, e.g., religious experience in not necessarily either objective or subjective; likewise, objective claims are rarely if ever completely divorced from subjectivity; experience qua experience is neither contradictory nor non-contradictory; modifying "contradiction" with "inherent" only magnifies these difficulties.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
mikenz66 wrote:Taken to an extreme, one would discount all teachings on dana and sila, since those are in agreement with most other religious systems at the time...
... and the brahma-viharas too...

:console: karuna
:twothumbsup: mudita
:) metta
8-) upekkha

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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ground
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by ground »

daverupa wrote:Here is a working link: the .pdf
JackV wrote:... Stephen Batchelor has prepared a statement of his view as a "Secular Buddhist" -

http://www.londoninsight.org/images/upl ... r_Buddhist_(2" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;).pdf



I have read this position with interest and I just wanted to see what others make of this.
...
I can fully accept when someone tries to structure his experiences by means of thinking/concepts. I think this is a common approach especially in the context of communication and I feel I can neither criticise nor reject nor affirm the result of such a structuring endeavour.


Kind regards
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Kim OHara
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by Kim OHara »

rowboat wrote:
Kim wrote:Until then, science should, logically, admit its ignorance and its inability to investigate these areas - and keep out.
I think I said something like that before, actually.
Stephen Jay Gould. Non overlapping magesteria: http://www.stephenjaygould.org/library/gould_noma.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

And that's the thing. Scientists are not unable to investigate the validity claims about things like jhana (and rebirth...etc.) But as you point out, these are entirely different modes of knowing. So if you want to know something about the physical/material world you can follow the basic injunctions proscribed by empirical science, but if you want to know about jhana (or your previous lives etc.) then there are a completely different set of injunctions to follow. These injunctions are to be found among the teachings of the Buddha and his noble disciples.
Thanks, rowboat.
I knew about NOMA but had never read the source document. (Hey! I have something in common with Gould! :smile: )

But you're misinterpreting me slightly by saying I say "these are entirely different modes of knowing". To me, there is no discontinuity between them but, rather, a spectrum running from knowledge of objectively demonstrable physical fact, to observable but objectively unprovable spiritual experience. I would love to be able to use the critical methods of science right across both 'magisteria'.
It seems to me that Gould has a bit of trouble with the meeting ground of his magisteria - was 'interdigitating' the word he used? - and that the boundaries can not be clearly distinguished. What about altruism, for instance? It is objectively observable in many species (science) and it is essential to morality (religion), so which side of the border is it? Should religion stop talking abut it just because science has discovered it?

:namaste:
Kim
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rowboat
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by rowboat »

Kim O'Hara: Thanks, rowboat.
I knew about NOMA but had never read the source document. (Hey! I have something in common with Gould! )

But you're misinterpreting me slightly by saying I say "these are entirely different modes of knowing". To me, there is no discontinuity between them but, rather, a spectrum running from knowledge of objectively demonstrable physical fact, to observable but objectively unprovable spiritual experience. I would love to be able to use the critical methods of science right across both 'magisteria'.
Thank you for the correction, Kim. I see what you mean.
Kim O'Hara: It seems to me that Gould has a bit of trouble with the meeting ground of his magisteria - was 'interdigitating' the word he used? - and that the boundaries can not be clearly distinguished. What about altruism, for instance? It is objectively observable in many species (science) and it is essential to morality (religion), so which side of the border is it? Should religion stop talking abut it just because science has discovered it?
I like your point about altruism. It reminds me of a "four quadrant model of consciousness" devised by the controversial maverick philosopher Ken Wilber, who has raised these sorts of questions in his paper titled An Integral Theory of Consciousness.

(Here is the paper itself, in case you or anyone else is interested. I have to state quite emphatically that I am not in any way a fan or a proponent of Ken Wilber or his ideas. I think Wilber gets many things wrong and is guilty of the worst sort of narcissism imaginable. Nevertheless, there is much substance here if I remember correctly: http://www.imprint.co.uk/Wilber.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; )
Rain soddens what is covered up,
It does not sodden what is open.
Therefore uncover what is covered
That the rain will not sodden it.
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Mr Man
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Re: Secular view - The Future of Religion

Post by Mr Man »

That the term ""Secular Buddhist" has been claimed by a particular camp is, in my opinion, a bit of a shame and rather odd, as it is a misnomer. It seems that certain views or non views are deemed to be "Secular Buddhist" views and it creates a dichotomy where there need not be one. I certainly don't see "Secular Buddhism" as the future of Buddhism although not to acknowledge the consensus viewpoints, of our time, seems to be ostrich like.

That people with an active religious life are nicer than those without - sorry I don't buy it.

:anjali:
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