Just some observations I'd like to share.
I've noticed that some pali words really make me struggle wrt pronunciation, so here's my phonetic-spelling for some words that I struggle with. Please please please correct me if I am pronouncing words wrong!
Uposatha (Oooo-poh-sah-tah)
Upasaka (Oooo-pah-sah-kah)
Upekkha (Oooo-peck-ah)
Dukkha (D'oooo-kah)
Do those look right? I struggle because the pronunciation of uposatha and upasaka are so so similar, or am I wrong?
Also, I recently noticed that metta is pronounced with an elongated 'a' at the end, like "met-ah" rather than the "meta" as I have usually said it... does everyone put the emphasis on the last 'a' or is my source in error?
Please feel free to comment and/or help me out... or even to state some of your own pronunciation nightmares!
(incidentally, the longer words like anapannasati I can pronounce okay (I think) because I've heard them said in lectures... the more simple words I tend not to hear as much for some reason... not sure why)
Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
Hi Mawkish,
The rendering of Pali in the Roman alphabet is already phonetic. You just need to know the rules.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... #pronounce" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Assuming, of course, that it is written with the diacriticals (or some code for them) so you know which vowels are short and which are long, and when there is a "ng" sound (ṃ & ṅ) and other stuff like ñ.
English speakers mangle Pali (like they mangle the native language in my country, Maori) because they think that just because it uses Roman letters the pronunciation should have something to do with English - which is a curious attitude... So they can't accept, for example, tha "e" is pronounced as "aye" (and always gets emphasis). [Happens to be the same pronunciation as Maori, which is not surprising since that's also a phonetic rendering...]
The other big challenge is the syllables. After a while you'll realise that certain letters never end a syllable, so you won't have a problem. The double consonants should be pronounced. the "h" in "kh" indicates an aspirated sound, etc...
"v" usually comes out as "w" because languges like Thai don't have a "v"...
Note that Upekkha splits up as U-pek-kha (U-payk-ka)
and Dukkha as Duk-kha
Doing some Pali chanting while following the text helps a lot:
http://www.forestmeditation.com/audio/audio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta
Mike
The rendering of Pali in the Roman alphabet is already phonetic. You just need to know the rules.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... #pronounce" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Assuming, of course, that it is written with the diacriticals (or some code for them) so you know which vowels are short and which are long, and when there is a "ng" sound (ṃ & ṅ) and other stuff like ñ.
English speakers mangle Pali (like they mangle the native language in my country, Maori) because they think that just because it uses Roman letters the pronunciation should have something to do with English - which is a curious attitude... So they can't accept, for example, tha "e" is pronounced as "aye" (and always gets emphasis). [Happens to be the same pronunciation as Maori, which is not surprising since that's also a phonetic rendering...]
The other big challenge is the syllables. After a while you'll realise that certain letters never end a syllable, so you won't have a problem. The double consonants should be pronounced. the "h" in "kh" indicates an aspirated sound, etc...
"v" usually comes out as "w" because languges like Thai don't have a "v"...
Note that Upekkha splits up as U-pek-kha (U-payk-ka)
and Dukkha as Duk-kha
Doing some Pali chanting while following the text helps a lot:
http://www.forestmeditation.com/audio/audio.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Metta
Mike
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
Uposatha is pronounced askfhaskdhfuayhef...
Upasaka is pronounced hdsffgaudshfua...
I don't see what's so difficult about it.
Upasaka is pronounced hdsffgaudshfua...
I don't see what's so difficult about it.
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
haha
then you get the thai way of (mis)pronouncing all these words....
then you get the thai way of (mis)pronouncing all these words....
สัพเพ สัตตา สุขีตา โหนตุ
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
the mountain may be heavy in and of itself, but if you're not trying to carry it it's not heavy to you- Ajaan Suwat
Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
Hmm, just how do Thai's pronounce hdsffgaudshfua?jcsuperstar wrote:haha
then you get the thai way of (mis)pronouncing all these words....
Mike
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
Individual wrote:Uposatha is pronounced askfhaskdhfuayhef...
Upasaka is pronounced hdsffgaudshfua...
I don't see what's so difficult about it.
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
Some words can be found on this page.
Blog • Pāli Fonts • In This Very Life • Buddhist Chronicles • Software (Upasampadā: 24th June, 1979)
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
It's a sound of derision.mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, just how do Thai's pronounce hdsffgaudshfua?jcsuperstar wrote:haha
then you get the thai way of (mis)pronouncing all these words....
Mike
Didn't you know?
You find it pronounced by overweight retired peers, equipped with walrus moustaches (pronounced mouse - tashies) and monocles, whilst eulogising about the good ol' days....
I think I find some terms easy to pronounce,because I am tri-lingual and have no difficulty (thanks to my latin roots) in discerning when A is 'ey' and A is 'Aah'....
"Samsara: The human condition's heartbreaking inability to sustain contentment." Elizabeth Gilbert, 'Eat, Pray, Love'.
Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
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Simplify: 17 into 1 WILL go: Mindfulness!
Quieta movere magna merces videbatur. (Sallust, c.86-c.35 BC)
Translation: Just to stir things up seemed a good reward in itself.
I am sooooo happy - How on earth could I be otherwise?!
http://www.armchairadvice.co.uk/relationships/forum/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
Exactly as it's spelled. Would it help if I added diacritics?mikenz66 wrote:Hmm, just how do Thai's pronounce hdsffgaudshfua?jcsuperstar wrote:haha
then you get the thai way of (mis)pronouncing all these words....
Mike
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
Pali is rather easy to pronounce with a bit of work and learning the rules. Ven Pesala's link is a help.
Learning the pronunciation of any language takes practice. Some are harder than others, so be thankful it is Pali, which is fairly easy pronunciation to learn rather than Irish, where you might run into this: nuachtghníomhaireacht.
Learning the pronunciation of any language takes practice. Some are harder than others, so be thankful it is Pali, which is fairly easy pronunciation to learn rather than Irish, where you might run into this: nuachtghníomhaireacht.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.
“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
In the early 70's I was in London in the subway (I think it was called tube at that time over there?) and heard some Londoners talking in some strange dialect - language. Later I asked what language they were speaking in. After some laughs I was told it was Cockney which I guess is Englishtiltbillings wrote: Irish, where you might run into this: nuachtghníomhaireacht.
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
Hi DhammaTheDhamma wrote:In the early 70's I was in London in the subway (I think it was called tube at that time over there?) and heard some Londoners talking in some strange dialect - language. Later I asked what language they were speaking in. After some laughs I was told it was Cockney which I guess is Englishtiltbillings wrote: Irish, where you might run into this: nuachtghníomhaireacht.
The british isles have many dialects and languages, there is the queens english which is the standard, and many many variations scotland speaks scottish (similare to english but has enough variations to be considered a seperate language, and up in aberdeen there is another language called Doric) I speak manx-English dialect their is also mancunian liverpudian and cocney being the slang language not dialect of london, but what you know as the subway is known as the tube in london, or underground.
Wm
Manapa
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
And what we know as a "subway", I expect David would know as a "pedestrian underpass".Manapa wrote:but what you know as the subway is known as the tube in london, or underground.
Yena yena hi maññanti,
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
tato taṃ hoti aññathā.
In whatever way they conceive it,
It turns out otherwise.
(Sn. 588)
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Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
Correct. But at least in Nevada and California, they are mostly "pedestrian overpasses."Dhammanando wrote:And what we know as a "subway", I expect David would know as a "pedestrian underpass".Manapa wrote:but what you know as the subway is known as the tube in london, or underground.
Re: Pronunciation nightmares: uposatha and upasaka make me cry
You mean a bridge?TheDhamma wrote: Correct. But at least in Nevada and California, they are mostly "pedestrian overpasses."
Mike