Why Meditate?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Ron Crouch wrote: Why would you, a self, want to wake up? What is the benefit of enlightenment? A lot of the sales-pitches of meditation out there make it sound like a great thing for the self: being more relaxed and a better “me”, who wouldn’t want that? But now that you know that the sales-pitch is essentially BS, you have to ask yourself, why meditate? The path is not easy. Like any other serious goal in life – getting a college degree, running a marathon, raising a family – it is a lot of work and not always a lot of fun. The truth is that, to a “self,” there really is no tangible benefit at all. From the perspective of the self it just makes no sense at all to wake up, in the same way that it makes no sense to the dreamer to get out of bed. The dream is awfully interesting, so why wake up?

If you are not interested in waking up – then don’t. If you simply cannot understand why anyone would ever want to see the self as a fiction, do not start meditating. This might seem like radical advice, but it really isn’t. If you have not started down the path of awakening in earnest, and you really aren’t interested in enlightenment, I’d recommend not getting started at all.

http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/why-meditate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike
Bagoba
Posts: 78
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2012 5:43 pm

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Bagoba »

mikenz66 wrote:
Ron Crouch wrote: Why would you, a self, want to wake up? What is the benefit of enlightenment? A lot of the sales-pitches of meditation out there make it sound like a great thing for the self: being more relaxed and a better “me”, who wouldn’t want that? But now that you know that the sales-pitch is essentially BS, you have to ask yourself, why meditate? The path is not easy. Like any other serious goal in life – getting a college degree, running a marathon, raising a family – it is a lot of work and not always a lot of fun. The truth is that, to a “self,” there really is no tangible benefit at all. From the perspective of the self it just makes no sense at all to wake up, in the same way that it makes no sense to the dreamer to get out of bed. The dream is awfully interesting, so why wake up?

If you are not interested in waking up – then don’t. If you simply cannot understand why anyone would ever want to see the self as a fiction, do not start meditating. This might seem like radical advice, but it really isn’t. If you have not started down the path of awakening in earnest, and you really aren’t interested in enlightenment, I’d recommend not getting started at all.

http://alohadharma.wordpress.com/why-meditate/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike
:goodpost:
"This path is a thorough investigation and understanding of the limitations of the mortal condition of the body and mind. Now you're developing the ability to turn away from the conditioned and to release your identity from mortality." Ajan Sumedho, "Mindfulness, the path to the Deathless." http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/deathless.pdf
User avatar
Travis
Posts: 105
Joined: Sun Jul 17, 2011 3:22 pm

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Travis »

Thanks for sharing this, Mike.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

(Reading the full entry... :reading: )

"Dark night" in the context of Theravada is interesting.

I wonder whether some paths/meditations/actions/whatever-you-want-to-call-them lead into the rabbits burrow of dukkha better than they lead out of it. It's quite plausible that the path that leads you to be aware of the problem, is quite a different path to that which can cure the problem, once diagnosed. To give an analogy, the x-ray that shows tumours is different to the medicine that may be used to heal them. Is the meditation the x-ray and/or the remedy? When the author of the posting says things like, " Advanced practitioners want to awaken because they are tired of being on the path, tired of being stuck in the twilight between awake and asleep", I wonder whether they're just sitting there taking endless x-rays, rather than taking the medicine of the Noble Eightfold Path.

Beware the po-faced meditator.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

Are you saying that path to nibbana is not difficult? Does anyone teach that?

See the discussion here: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 01#p177147" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dispassion, monks, also has a supporting condition, I say, it does not lack a supporting condition. And what is the supporting condition for dispassion? 'Disenchantment'[*] should be the reply.
[*] Nibbida: Sometimes translated as dispassion, sometimes as disgust.
Ireland: "The state of ceasing to be infatuated with conditioned existence."
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... html#fn-42" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Here's how Ajahn Chah puts it:
Ajahn Chah wrote:If we don’t want to look at dukkha, we will never understand dukkha, no matter how many births we go through. Dukkha is noble truth. If we allow ourselves to face it, then we will start to seek a way out of it. If we are trying to go somewhere and the road is blocked, we will think about how to make a pathway. Working at it day after day, we can get through. When we encounter problems, we develop wisdom like this. Without seeing dukkha, we don’t really look into and resolve our problems; we just pass them by indifferently.

My way of training people involves some suffering, because suffering is the Buddha’s path to enlightenment. He wanted us to see suffering, and to see origination, cessation, and the path. This is the way out for all the aryas, the awakened ones. If you don’t go this way, there is no way out. The only way is knowing suffering, knowing the cause of suffering, knowing the cessation of suffering, and knowing the path of practice leading to the cessation of suffering. This is the way that the aryas, beginning with stream entry, were able to escape. It’s necessary to know suffering.

http://www.theravada-dhamma.org/blog/?p=9317" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Are you saying that path to nibbana is not difficult? Does anyone teach that?
Not at all, and I'm left scratching my head as to how you could have possibly interpreted what I said that way.

I'm saying the path to nibbana is the Noble Eightfold Path and that the fruit of that path is commensurate with the progress along that path.

If there is some form of meditation that leaves its pursuants stuck and festering in a morbid "dark night", desperate to become enlightened merely to escape that meditation-induced morbidity, then it sounds more like a path that leads to the hell realms of niraya or the peta realm of hungry ghosts, than a path that embodies the upward spiral of the Dhamma that is good in the beginning, middle and end.

Don't grab the snake by the tail.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:"Dark night" in the context of Theravada is interesting.

I wonder whether some paths/meditations/actions/whatever-you-want-to-call-them lead into the rabbits burrow of dukkha better than they lead out of it. It's quite plausible that the path that leads you to be aware of the problem, is quite a different path to that which can cure the problem, once diagnosed. To give an analogy, the x-ray that shows tumours is different to the medicine that may be used to heal them. Is the meditation the x-ray and/or the remedy? When the author of the posting says things like, " Advanced practitioners want to awaken because they are tired of being on the path, tired of being stuck in the twilight between awake and asleep", I wonder whether they're just sitting there taking endless x-rays, rather than taking the medicine of the Noble Eightfold Path.
I think it's common for people to start on the path with misconceptiions about what the path is about, unrealistic expectations about the results they will get, wrong view etc. This is often informed by romantic views of Buddhism or self-ish motivations.

To me "the dark night" refers to a process of slowly realising these things are part of the problem not part of the solution and letting go of the attachments to them, which is often painful or leaves one in a period of disillusionment.

Slowly we realise we are creating a new kind of Dukkha with our attitude to practise and let go of it, it's not that there was anything wrong with the practise to start with it's just our attitude to it that changes.
"If you haven't cried deeply a number of times, your meditation hasn't really begun." - Ajahn Chah
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
befriend
Posts: 2283
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by befriend »

there is nothing more difficult than being a dhamma practitioner there is no happiness like that of a dhamma practitioner -ajahn chah
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Goof,
Goofaholix wrote:To me "the dark night" refers to a process of slowly realising these things are part of the problem not part of the solution and letting go of the attachments to them, which is often painful or leaves one in a period of disillusionment.

Slowly we realise we are creating a new kind of Dukkha with our attitude to practise and let go of it, it's not that there was anything wrong with the practise to start with it's just our attitude to it that changes.
Yes, the "attitude to it", as you call it, changes. Maybe someone should tell Ron Grouch...
Ron Crouch wrote:The reason that I give this advice is because there is what I would call a “point of no return” on the path, where the meditator has to finish. Unfortunately, this point comes right at the Dark Night, and if you don’t finish the path you remain stuck in the Dark Night. That sucks. You cannot go back to sleep, so to speak, and yet you aren’t fully awake. You know something is wrong, and feel terribly out of sync with reality. If you stop meditating at this point you stop making progress and stay in misery.

The reason to meditate that most experienced meditators give is “to end suffering.” And though it is correct to understand this to mean the suffering of life itself, there is also a deeper meaning: that the reason to meditate is to end the suffering inherent in the path itself. Advanced practitioners want to awaken because they are tired of being on the path, tired of being stuck in the twilight between awake and asleep. If you aren’t prepared to work your way through that twilight, don’t begin the path, and do not take up a meditation practice.
The Buddha's teaching on Right Effort can help to ensure that the attitude is appropriate to the circumstance and that mindstates are wholesome, and that one's realisations are encouraged to support Right Effort and the other factors of the path, rather than oppose them. "Dark nighters" aren't meditation heroes to me... they're people who have lost the forest for the trees, mistaking meditation techniques for Dhamma. More fool them.

Of relevance here:

Five Piles of Bricks: The Khandhas as Burden & Path by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... andha.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

In particular, this sentence...

"If used unskillfully, though, these perceptions and fabrications can simply replace passion with its mirror image, aversion."

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 4015
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Goofaholix »

retrofuturist wrote:Maybe someone should tell Ron Grouch...
Grouch or Crouch? Freudian slip or rare display of humour?
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27839
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
kirk5a
Posts: 1959
Joined: Thu Sep 23, 2010 1:51 pm

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by kirk5a »

Interesting perspective. I think it's better to be aware that difficulties may arise, rather than have rose-colored glasses about the whole thing, so I appreciate Ron's post.
If you have not started down the path of awakening in earnest, and you really aren’t interested in enlightenment, I’d recommend not getting started at all.
I think that's overstating it though. Not getting started at all is probably actually the worst.

Besides - practicing hard core Mahasi-style insight meditation is not the only way forward. It's not the only way people can partake of the teachings, it's not the only way to meditate, it's not the only way to realize benefits from meditation, it's not the only way to be a good follower of the Buddha, and it's not even the only vehicle to enlightenment. (All in my opinion, of course.) It's probably worth remembering that what the Buddha called "right concentration" involves bliss.
"When one thing is practiced & pursued, ignorance is abandoned, clear knowing arises, the conceit 'I am' is abandoned, latent tendencies are uprooted, fetters are abandoned. Which one thing? Mindfulness immersed in the body." -AN 1.230
User avatar
manas
Posts: 2678
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by manas »

kirk5a wrote: It's probably worth remembering that what the Buddha called "right concentration" involves bliss.
Indeed. Ajahn Chah once called meditation 'a holiday for the mind'. We should seek out and find ways to make it a soothing and pleasant experience, especially at first.

When a baby is born, it has no teeth, so only mother's milk is given. Then, when teeth begin to form, it is started on simple foods, such as fruit. Only later on do we introduce hard, ordinary foods. Maybe we should do the same with our mind. First, give it some love and peace to ease away all the years of negative thinking, stress, etc. Then, when it is a bit healed, we can start on the more challenging work. I would be saddened if someone's only experience of meditation was that it was always difficult and painful. That's certainly not how the suttas describe it.

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19932
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

retrofuturist wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:Are you saying that path to nibbana is not difficult? Does anyone teach that?
Not at all, and I'm left scratching my head as to how you could have possibly interpreted what I said that way.
Because you seem to be denying that the path involves difficult obstacles, and implying that anyone who has difficulties is practising the wrong way.

As far as I can tell from the teachings of people who have walked the path, from the Buddha, through the ancient commentators, to modern teachers such as Ajahn Chah, such difficulties arise for many, if not most, practitioners. In fact, as the suttas, the ancient commentaries, and the quote I provided from Ajahn Chah say, seeing just how wearisome all that dukkha is is an essential part of the path.

:anjali:
Mike
Post Reply