Why Meditate?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,
mikenz66 wrote:Because you seem to be denying that the path involves difficult obstacles, and implying that anyone who has difficulties is practising the wrong way.
Once again I'm baffled at the conclusions you draw, so completely disconnected from what is actually said.

Of course there are difficulties - if there were not difficulties, it would be the ultimate ease (sukha) - nibbana.
mikenz66 wrote:seeing just how wearisome all that dukkha is is an essential part of the path.
It's one thing to see the weariness of dukkha.

It is another thing entirely to wallow in dukkha and cling tenaciously to an aversion towards everything conditioned. Even worse again, is to do so under the delusion that one's aversion is righteous because it is insight... for if one's supposed insights are leading one to, and leaving one stuck in, a "dark night" of unhappiness situation, replete with dukkha and dissatisfaction, what good is that? If so called insight is leading to these destinations, where is one's refuge? So much for such "insight".
AN 4.235 wrote:"And what is kamma that is dark with dark result? There is the case where a certain person fabricates an injurious bodily fabrication, fabricates an injurious verbal fabrication, fabricates an injurious mental fabrication. Having fabricated an injurious bodily fabrication, having fabricated an injurious verbal fabrication, having fabricated an injurious mental fabrication, he rearises in an injurious world. On rearising in an injurious world, he is there touched by injurious contacts. Touched by injurious contacts, he experiences feelings that are exclusively painful, like those of the beings in hell. This is called kamma that is dark with dark result.

...

"And what is kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma? right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration. This is called kamma that is neither dark nor bright with neither dark nor bright result, leading to the ending of kamma."
The Buddha taught this out of compassion for others, but I suppose there are those who won't listen. All experience is fabricated... if people insist on fabricating an injurous world (e.g. a "dark night") for themselves against the Buddha's advice, then I guess it's going to be hard for me, or anyone else for that matter, to convince them otherwise. I wish them all the best.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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manas
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by manas »

1. :goodpost:
__________________________________________________________________________________
2. I cannot find it now, but there was a sutta where the Buddha described four types of practice: long and painful, quick and painful, long and pleasant, short and pleasant. I hope someone else can recall the sutta name, but it shows that there are differences between individuals in how they experience the path of practice.

As far as I'm concerned, I don't feel the need to make the practice dukkha-laden when most of my life has already been that way. The Dhamma is bringing me some peace of mind, at long last, and I'm not feeling in the least guilty about it! Peace...it's fine by me :D

:anjali:
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
dhamma_newb
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by dhamma_newb »

Hi Retro,

Isn't "dark night" just a term used to refer to certain unpleasant stages described in Mahasi Sayadaw's Progress of Insight where one can get stuck? Or if you practice is it just a straight shot through the stages right to Nibbana?
manas wrote:As far as I'm concerned, I don't feel the need to make the practice dukkha-laden when most of my life has already been that way. The Dhamma is bringing me some peace of mind, at long last, and I'm not feeling in the least guilty about it! Peace...it's fine by me :D
Nice words manas - I agree wholeheartedly!!!
The watched mind brings happiness.
Dhp 36

I am larger and better than I thought. I did not know I held so much goodness.
Walt Whitman
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Dhamma_newb,
dhamma_newb wrote:Isn't "dark night" just a term used to refer to certain unpleasant stages described in Mahasi Sayadaw's Progress of Insight where one can get stuck? Or if you practice is it just a straight shot through the stages right to Nibbana?
I'm not really the one to ask. Perhaps someone with involvement in that approach might be able to explain.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Bagoba
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Bagoba »

I remember once reading and even watching a video about a meditator talking about a breakthrough that happens during meditation (I can't quite remember the name it is given though and why it happens), which can be extremely blissful for some, extremely scary and traumatic for others (visions of death and so on), and neither blissful nor traumatic for many.

Maybe the "Dark Night" that this person mentions, has something to do with that breakthrough coming upon the meditator as scary and traumatic?

On another note, to a certain extent all of us here, are currently walking in this "twilight", that's located between complete ignorance and the final knowledge and release of Nibbana. Many people around me, are far from the spiritual life, they indulge in the senses because they don't know (or don't want to know) any better. For them, "ignorance is bliss", and although they suffer terribly according to the Buddha's definition of suffering, for them they just live their lives to the fullest and make the most out of it without worrying about what tomorrow will be made of.

For us here who are sensitive to the Buddha's 4 Noble Truths, this state of being described above is hardly conceivable, as we understand the preciousness of human birth according to the Buddha's guidance, so we want to get on with the practices that will lead us to Nibbana, and these demand a discipline of body, speech and mind that wordlings do not care about one bit.

As far as my experience goes, as soon as one steps on the path, one is no longer fully ignorant, yet one is not yet fully awake, and this "twilight" situation can indeed make one seem "grouchy" when he/she gets to be around regular wordlings, if you see what I mean. :)
Last edited by Bagoba on Thu May 17, 2012 10:23 am, edited 3 times in total.
"This path is a thorough investigation and understanding of the limitations of the mortal condition of the body and mind. Now you're developing the ability to turn away from the conditioned and to release your identity from mortality." Ajan Sumedho, "Mindfulness, the path to the Deathless." http://www.buddhanet.net/pdf_file/deathless.pdf
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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Retro,

I guess we'll just agree to disagree. My understanding of the Buddha, the Commentaries and modern teachers has nothing to do with "wallowing in dukkha" and "po faced meditators". Ass far as I can see you are creating distracting strawmen that miss the point. :strawman:

:anjali:
Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

If "the point" of this topic is to valorize the blog entries of Ron Crouch, then you're right... we will have to "agree to disagree".
Nyanaponika Thera in The Roots Of Good And Evil wrote: The three unwholesome roots are not restricted to the strong manifestation suggested by the English terms greed, hatred and delusion. To understand their range it is important to know that in Pali these three terms stand for all degrees of intensity, even the weakest, of the three defilements, and for all varieties in which these appear. In their weak degrees their unwholesome influence on character and kammic consequences is, of course, not as grave as that of their stronger forms. But even weak forms may carry the risk of either growing stronger or making a person’s character more susceptible to their graver manisfestations. A fuller view of the various forms the unwholesome roots assume may be gained from a list of their synonyms, partly taken from the Dhammasaṅgaṇī, the first book of the Abhidhamma Piṭaka.

Greed — liking, wishing, longing, fondness, affection, attachment, lust, cupidity, craving, passion, self-indulgence, possessiveness, avarice; desire for the five sense objects; desire for wealth, offspring, fame, etc.

Hatred — dislike, disgust, revulsion, resentment, grudge, ill-humour, vexation, irritability, antagonism, aversion, anger, wrath, vengefulness.

Delusion — stupidity, dullness, confusion, ignorance of essentials (e.g. of the Four Noble Truths), prejudice, ideological dogmatism, fanaticism, wrong views, conceit.
Dhp5 wrote:Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased. This is a law eternal.
Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Not at all. The intention was simply to discuss the difficulties of the Path, as reported by the Buddha and ancient and modern practitioners and teachers.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"What do you think, Ananda: Which is harder to do, harder to master — to shoot arrows through a tiny keyhole without missing, one right after the other, or to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip?"

"This, lord, is harder to do, harder to master — to take a horsehair split into seven strands and pierce tip with a tip."http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

"And they, Ananda, pierce what is even harder to pierce, those who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is stress'; who pierce, as it actually is present, that 'This is the origination of stress'... 'This is the cessation of stress'... 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'

"Therefore, Ananda, your duty is the contemplation, 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress.' Your duty is the contemplation, 'This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress.'"
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .olen.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
[Kamada:]
So hard it is to do, Lord, It's so very hard to do!
[Buddha:]
But still they do what's hard to do, Who steady themselves with virtue. For one pursuing homelessness, Content arrives, and with it joy.
[Kamada:]
So hard it is to get, Lord, This content of which you speak!
[Buddha:]
But still they get what's hard to get, Who delight in a tranquil mind. The mind of those, both day and night, Delights in its development.
[Kamada:]
So hard it is to tame, Lord, This mind of which you speak!
[Buddha:]
But still they tame what's hard to tame, Who delight in senses at peace. Cutting through mortality's net, The nobles, Kamada, proceed.
[Kamada:]
So hard it is to go, Lord, On this path that gets so rough!
[Buddha:]
Still nobles, Kamada, proceed On paths both rough and hard to take. Those who are less than noble fall On their heads when the path gets rough. But for nobles the path is smooth — For nobles smooth out what is rough!

Translator's note

This plaintive cry of the deva Kamada, concerning the difficulty of Buddhist practice, will resonate with almost anyone who has embarked on the temporary homelessness of a retreat at IMS or elsewhere. The steady reply of the Buddha here admonishes Kamada to overcome his weaknesses and find the nobility within himself to tread the noble path.
:anjali:
Mike
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Mike,

Much better.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Nyana
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Nyana »

"Neither difficult nor easy...." -- Lingzhao (daughter of Layman & Mrs. Pang)

:sage:

:tongue:
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

Hi there - a friend of mine sent me a message this morning that there was an interesting discussion going on over here about my essay "Why Meditate" and that I should drop by and check it out. It looks like it really hit a nerve with some people and that is kind of what I intended with it so it looks like the message is getting out. :console:

I wanted to offer myself up for questions directly about this essay and what I meant by it, since there is a lot of speculation here. Despite having a last name that is suspiciously close to "grouch" and having written such a rough essay, I'm actually a pretty easy going person! I really enjoy answering questions, so don't hesitate to ask me directly. What would you like to know?

P.S. I may take a while to get back to you today but will be back in the evening and will be happy to answer then.
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Challenge23
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Challenge23 »

Good afternoon!

The essay at the original post was part of some research I was doing in regards to meditating.

To put it in perspective here is a bit more of what I found.

For the past few years Willoughby Britton has been doing research into negative side effects of meditation(she did an interview on the podcast Buddhist Geeks, the transcript of which is here. A lot of the things she found were, to me, pretty disturbing. People experiencing strong fear because they no longer have a sense of self and can't reconcile that with performing mundane actions(which resulted in words spontaneously coming out of their mouths or walking happening without intervention on their part because there was no "they" to intervene) is one of quite a few examples she mentioned in the podcast. The other points was that all of the teachers interviewed were quite explicit in that they believed that 100% of students would go through this negative period she observed and that this period(defined by her as "clinical impairment", effects that hamper everyday interactions with reality) averaged out at over 3 years.

Honestly, as a practitioner I'm not 100% sure that the end goal is worth it(as I'm skeptical of any form of existence of consciousness after death).
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Travis
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Travis »

Welcome Ron! Though I found your essay to be a little dramatic, I also appreciated the overall sentiment and that it was unique in portraying meditation as something other than the way it is portrayed in popular culture as bohemian, self-help, or therapy on the cheap. I also identified with your notion of the actual why of meditation being a hard to put into words feeling that something isn't right=what Buddha was saying about the 1st NT. I believe I have come across it before, but can't recall where (Thanissaro or maybe Nanananda, perhaps Stephen Batchelor?).
retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Dhamma_newb,
dhamma_newb wrote:Isn't "dark night" just a term used to refer to certain unpleasant stages described in Mahasi Sayadaw's Progress of Insight where one can get stuck? Or if you practice is it just a straight shot through the stages right to Nibbana?
I'm not really the one to ask. Perhaps someone with involvement in that approach might be able to explain.

Metta,
Retro. :)
Thanks for making your(self) :jumping: available for discussion.

P.S. For those familiar with her story perhaps Sister Vajira would be a good example of someone stuck in the "Dark Night"?
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Challenge23
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Challenge23 »

Ron Crouch wrote:Hi there - a friend of mine sent me a message this morning that there was an interesting discussion going on over here about my essay "Why Meditate" and that I should drop by and check it out. It looks like it really hit a nerve with some people and that is kind of what I intended with it so it looks like the message is getting out. :console:

I wanted to offer myself up for questions directly about this essay and what I meant by it, since there is a lot of speculation here. Despite having a last name that is suspiciously close to "grouch" and having written such a rough essay, I'm actually a pretty easy going person! I really enjoy answering questions, so don't hesitate to ask me directly. What would you like to know?

P.S. I may take a while to get back to you today but will be back in the evening and will be happy to answer then.
Very good, thank you.

In your essay at the end you had the following,
Ron Crouch from the essay wrote:Even though the sense of “I” doesn’t know why, there is still a drive that impels some people to meditate. It is an undercurrent in your life that nags at you that is much deeper than the “I.” You may not fully understand what it is, and you will likely express it in all kinds of ways, but when you hear that there is a way to wake up from the dream of the self, you will be intrigued.
That part confuses me a little. The way I read it can be summed up as "You should meditate because some deep part of you wants to meditate." Was that what you were trying to convey? If it was, and I apologize if this is offensive, that is a circular argument.

The main thrust of your essay seems to be, "You should meditate because you want Enlightenment." But then that answers the question with an equally vague term, that being "Enlightenment". Considering the very significant perils of meditation that you brought up, could you speak briefly on what Enlightenment is and why it would be worth the perils? Also, do you think it is still worth it if reincarnation doesn't exist?

Thanks again for your time,
James
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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Ron, Welcome,
Ron Crouch wrote: I wanted to offer myself up for questions directly about this essay and what I meant by it, since there is a lot of speculation here. Despite having a last name that is suspiciously close to "grouch" and having written such a rough essay, I'm actually a pretty easy going person! I really enjoy answering questions, so don't hesitate to ask me directly. What would you like to know?
Since the difficulties you point out appear to be consistent with statements in the Suttas (which I've quoted above) and Commentaries, and with what I've gathered from listening to modern teachers and discussions with fellow practitioners, I don't have any particular problem with what you wrote.

Perhaps you could address the particular point that retrofuturist makes:
retrofuturist wrote: I wonder whether some paths/meditations/actions/whatever-you-want-to-call-them lead into the rabbits burrow of dukkha better than they lead out of it. It's quite plausible that the path that leads you to be aware of the problem, is quite a different path to that which can cure the problem, once diagnosed.
I.e. does the Path inevitably involve "dark night" difficult patches and/or do some approaches bring up unnecessary difficulties that could be avoided?

:anjali:
Mike
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