Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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Dan74
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Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by Dan74 »

"This is said to be the sublime abiding. By not holding to fixed views, The pure-hearted one, having clarity of vision, Being freed from all sense desires, Is not born again into this world." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .amar.html

Namo Tassa Bagawato Arahato Samma Sam Buddha Sa!

:bow: :bow: :bow:

It saddens me deeply to see people take up fundamentalist positions, fail to recognize that our positions at best are provisional, our understanding partial and possibly wrong. And yet each in our own way, we all do bump against life, don't we? Just like those of us who hold to views feel the need to denounce the other views, to proclaim their superior positions and thereby avail themselves inadvertently of the opportunity to come in contact with reality.

Sanghas can also develop fundamentalist positions, both on teachings and on doing things. I recall a long-term Zen meditator say once that without the formalism he is used to, he does not like to meditate and that really surprised me.

It seems to me that the Buddha does not deal in absolutes. There is guidance, skillful means, cure for the illness, not positions, not "my way or the highway". Even partial dhamma, dhamma that is mixed and diluted may actually be the best medicine for some, if they cannot swallow the pure full-strength, unsweetened undiluted stuff! Who am I to know? Don't I sweeten and dilute the Dhamma for myself every time given that I see it through the lens of my deluded self-serving?

I'd be very interested on how people feel about this and also how our attitudes have changed over the years of practice, encounters with other practitioners and teachers.

(edited for typos)
Last edited by Dan74 on Fri May 18, 2012 5:48 am, edited 2 times in total.
_/|\_
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retrofuturist
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Dan74 wrote:It saddens deeply me...
Don't be sad, Dan.

There's a sutta somewhere where the Buddha says do not feel elated when his teaching is praised, and do not feel dejected when it is denounced. I'll see if I can find it for you, when I get a chance...

http://www.thisismyanmar.com/nibbana/sammapa2.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

"Bhikkhus, you must not feel disgruntled at the irrespectful attitude of people or elated by their respectful attitude."

I'm sure this attitude is transferable to one's own preferred teachers.

The Buddha's teaching behooves you to do what is required to put down this sadness...
SN 45.8 wrote:"And what, monks, is right effort?

"There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen.

[ii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen.

[iii] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen.

[iv] "He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort."

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by tiltbillings »

Dan74 wrote: It saddens deeply me to see people take up fundamentalist positions, fail to recognize that our positions at best are provisional, our understanding partial and possibly wrong.
The wisdom insecurity is rather difficult. It is much easier to take the postion that we have the answers without question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote:
Dan74 wrote: It saddens deeply me to see people take up fundamentalist positions, fail to recognize that our positions at best are provisional, our understanding partial and possibly wrong.
The wisdom insecurity is rather difficult. It is much easier to take the postion that we have the answers without question.
Probably best to ignore fundamentalist positions. Difficult though...

I value the various opinions on the Dhamma I see here and elsewhere... :group:

:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by tiltbillings »

mikenz66 wrote:

I value the various opinions on the Dhamma I see here and elsewhere... :group:
But don't forget that some of them are correct and others really are not what the Buddha taught.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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mikenz66
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by mikenz66 »

tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:
I value the various opinions on the Dhamma I see here and elsewhere... :group:
But don't forget that some of them are correct and others really are not what the Buddha taught.
Sure. Obviously I have my opinions on what and what is and what is not Buddha-Dhamma... :reading:

:anjali:
Mike
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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:

I value the various opinions on the Dhamma I see here and elsewhere... :group:
But don't forget that some of them are correct and other really are not what the Buddha taught.
Surely you're missing an emoticon?
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mikenz66
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by mikenz66 »

Mr Man wrote: Surely you're missing an emoticon?
Tilt doesn't do emoticons... Image

:anjali:
Mike
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by tiltbillings »

Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
mikenz66 wrote:

I value the various opinions on the Dhamma I see here and elsewhere... :group:
But don't forget that some of them are correct and others really are not what the Buddha taught.
Surely you're missing an emoticon?
Actually not. Other than I think "emoticons" are gawdawful, I am, indeed, making a pointed point. No mitigation of it via cutesy imagery is needed.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Mr Man
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by Mr Man »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
But don't forget that some of them are correct and other really are not what the Buddha taught.
Surely you're missing an emoticon?
Actually not. Other than I think "emoticons" are gawdawful, I am, indeed, making a pointed point.
You are taking a funamentalist position. :lol: :)
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retrofuturist
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,

It is not good to be allow oneself to be upset and rage at the ways of others. According to commentarial description of hatred (as quoted in Nyanaponika Thera's "The Roots Of Good And Evil")
Hatred has the characteristic of savageness, like a provoked
snake. Its function is to spread, like a drop of poison, or its function
is to burn up its own support, like a forest fire. It is manifested as
persecuting like an enemy that has got his chance. Its proximate
cause is the grounds for annoyance (āghāta-vatthu). It should be
regarded as being like stale urine mixed with poison.
If bringing the ways of others to mind gives rise to perceptions rooted in hatred, it is preferable to renounce such perceptions as they give rise to suffering.

One way I have found to do this is through mudita ~ appreciation. If I can find something to appreciate in someone, or in any given situation, then no matter how small that thing I appreciate is, the quality of mudita arises in the mind, and wholesome mindstates crowd out unwholesome ones. Knowing that all thoughts and fabrications are created by us, we really can start to take responsibility for our own thoughts and our own state of mind!
Dhp 1 wrote:Mind precedes all mental states. Mind is their chief; they are all mind-wrought. If with an impure mind a person speaks or acts suffering follows him like the wheel that follows the foot of the ox.
If we examine our own experiences honestly, we see this is true...

The Dhamma is to be used fundamentally as a means to relinquish dukkha, not as a means of politicking or as something that gives rise to hatred in us.

The Dhamma is cool. 8-)

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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Doshin
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by Doshin »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:...
Surely you're missing an emoticon?
Actually not. Other than I think "emoticons" are gawdawful, I am, indeed, making a pointed point. No mitigation of it via cutesy imagery is needed.
I fully agree.

If my writings is depending on smiley's being added, I either reformulate it or don't send it at all.
Knowing about dhamma, does not imply knowing dhamma
plwk
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by plwk »

There's a sutta somewhere where the Buddha says do not feel elated when his teaching is praised, and do not feel dejected when it is denounced...
This?
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .bodh.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
"If, bhikkhus, others speak in dispraise of me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha, you should not give way to resentment, displeasure, or animosity against them in your heart.

For if you were to become angry or upset in such a situation, you would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves.

If you were to become angry or upset when others speak in dispraise of us, would you be able to recognize whether their statements are rightly or wrongly spoken?"
"Certainly not, Lord."

"If, bhikkhus, others speak in dispraise of me, or in dispraise of the Dhamma, or in dispraise of the Sangha, you should unravel what is false and point it out as false, saying: 'For such and such a reason this is false, this is untrue, there is no such thing in us, this is not found among us.'

"And if, bhikkhus, others speak in praise of me, or in praise of the Dhamma, or in praise of the Sangha, you should not give way to jubilation, joy, and exultation in your heart.

For if you were to become jubilant, joyful, and exultant in such a situation, you would only be creating an obstacle for yourselves.

If others speak in praise of me, or in praise of the Dhamma, or in praise of the Sangha, you should acknowledge what is fact as fact, saying: 'For such and such a reason this is a fact, this is true, there is such a thing in us, this is found among us.'
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retrofuturist
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings plwk,

Excellent, thank you. That's the one!

Let us not create obstacles for ourselves.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: Buddhism Fundamentalism?

Post by tiltbillings »

tiltbillings wrote:
Mr Man wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:
But don't forget that some of them are correct and others really are not what the Buddha taught.
Surely you're missing an emoticon?
Actually not. Other than I think "emoticons" are gawdawful, I am, indeed, making a pointed point.
Mr Man wrote:You are taking a funamentalist position. :lol: :)
Now. while you make my point about "emoticons, I have simply voiced an opinion, and as opinions are concerned, I share Seng-ts'an's opinion of opinions. Also, you completely missed the point I made in my original msg.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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