Why Meditate?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Post Reply
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Enough of the battle of the sexes...

I'm off to watch a rugby game for a while, but I'd be interested to see Ron's (and others') take on what I posted from the Visuddhimagga and Mahasi Sayadaw above:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p188867" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by tiltbillings »

polarbuddha101 wrote:Tilt, I'm glad you feel that way but I've read things that seem to indicate otherwise. So it's just what I've gathered indirectly. If there isn't this problem then awesome.

:namaste:
Do believe everything you read? There is classically a division between the "wet" and the "dry" approach, but the reality is that in actual practice the division is more apparent than real. What is called vipassana meditation cultivates and requires considerable samatha qualities. This is not from reading, but from working with a number of teachers of "vipassana meditation." I think we need to be careful here in assuming that the classical wet/dry descriptions are hard and fast.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1348
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Polar Bear »

tiltbillings wrote:
polarbuddha101 wrote:Tilt, I'm glad you feel that way but I've read things that seem to indicate otherwise. So it's just what I've gathered indirectly. If there isn't this problem then awesome.

:namaste:
Do believe everything you read? There is classically a division between the "wet" and the "dry" approach, but the reality is that in actual practice the division is more apparent than real. What is called vipassana meditation cultivates and requires considerable samatha qualities. This is not from reading, but from working with a number of teachers of "vipassana meditation." I think we need to be careful here in assuming that the classical wet/dry descriptions are hard and fast.
No, I certainly don't believe everything I read, but I do take it into consideration. Anyways, like I said, awesome!

:namaste:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,

:lol:

... in case the humour was only evident to myself (as is often the case), the "manly" aspect was a reference to those intrepid explorers, wandering through dark nights, fighting demons, wrestling kilesas and ferocious beasts with their bare hands, in order to impress their lady-friends and comrades... those doing manly things in a manly way. (i.e. it was actually a subtle dig at manliness itself, much like the following clip)



Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
User avatar
tiltbillings
Posts: 23046
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 9:25 am

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by tiltbillings »

retrofuturist wrote:Well said. I'm not sure if you're familiar with Nanavira Thera...
Nanavira Thera wrote:Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha's Teaching. But human kind, it seems, cannot bear very much reality: men, for the most part, draw back in alarm and dismay from this vertiginous direct view of being and seek refuge in distractions.
A nice description of the dark night of the soul. It actually takes a fair amount of practice/work to confront the abyss, which is really what bhavana is about.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
User avatar
cooran
Posts: 8503
Joined: Tue Jan 06, 2009 11:32 pm
Location: Queensland, Australia

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by cooran »

retrofuturist wrote:Greetings Chris,

:lol:

... in case the humour was only evident to myself (as is often the case), the "manly" aspect was a reference to those intrepid explorers, wandering through dark nights, fighting demons, wrestling kilesas and ferocious beasts with their bare hands, in order to impress their lady-friends and comrades... those doing manly things in a manly way.



Metta,
Retro. :)
Hello Paul,

No worries Paul, all good - working as a social worker in a public health system, I’ve learned to put the Akosa Sutta into practice, even when insults and disparagement are really meant.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

with metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
---It's not what happens to you in life that is important ~ it's what you do with it ---
User avatar
retrofuturist
Posts: 27848
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 9:52 pm
Location: Melbourne, Australia
Contact:

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Chris,
cooran wrote:I’ve learned to put the Akosa Sutta into practice, even when insults and disparagement are really meant.
:twothumbsup:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Ron Crouch
Posts: 50
Joined: Thu May 17, 2012 4:32 pm

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

mikenz66 wrote:Enough of the battle of the sexes...

I'm off to watch a rugby game for a while, but I'd be interested to see Ron's (and others') take on what I posted from the Visuddhimagga and Mahasi Sayadaw above:
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 60#p188867" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Mike

The contradiction is apparent. It goes back to "The Three Kinds of Full Understanding" (page 3 in Chapter 20 — Purification by knowledge and vision of what is and what is not the path), which essentially describes the trajectory that a practitioner experiences through a single insight stage (and in the path overall). First you know it by "tasting" it directly, then you see it going in and out of existence on its own (nothing to do with you), and then you stop identifying with it completely. When you go through the analogies in the Visuddhimagga they include examples from all of those understandings (read the other examples and this becomes clearer). Once you are ready to transition out of a stage and into the next you'll be very dispassionate about it because you've let it go. Then you'll taste the next one and work through that.

The key thing here is to understand that if you are having these negative experiences, as Mahasi points out, it is part and parcel of the path. Don't blame yourself or think you've really messed up. This is insight.
User avatar
Ben
Posts: 18438
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:49 am
Location: kanamaluka

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ben »

Hi Ron,
Ron Crouch wrote:Maybe this is inappropriate for this forum, and Ben can chime in and let me know if I'm crossing a line in this particular online community, but I would be much more interested in hearing about your personal experience with the mix of concentration and insight than any thoughts about it. When you are calm and collected and concentrated during meditation what happens?

Please keep in mind that I know this is a personal question, so I do not ask it in any challenging way. I know how important concentration is for fruitful insight and any personal experiences you (or others) would feel safe in sharing would be wonderful examples...
Its fine. Usually, I would prefer the discussion to go into the 'personal experience' forum or within the 'general meditation' forum but I think we can leave it here.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
User avatar
Mr Man
Posts: 4016
Joined: Tue Oct 04, 2011 8:42 am

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Mr Man »

To the original question "Why Meditate?". I would say we should practice because we have the opportunity, which is a blessing. The first noble truth applies to all - meditators and non meditators. Worth remembering that there is much more to Buddhist practice than meditation.
User avatar
mikenz66
Posts: 19941
Joined: Sat Jan 10, 2009 7:37 am
Location: Aotearoa, New Zealand

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Ron, Thanks for the clarification.
Ron Crouch wrote: The contradiction is apparent. It goes back to "The Three Kinds of Full Understanding" ([paragraph] 3 in Chapter 20 — Purification by knowledge and vision of what is and what is not the path), which essentially describes the trajectory that a practitioner experiences through a single insight stage (and in the path overall). First you know it by "tasting" it directly, then you see it going in and out of existence on its own (nothing to do with you), and then you stop identifying with it completely.
That's useful. Obviously I need to read these chapters again, more carefully.
Buddhaghosa wrote:[THE THREE KINDS OF FULL-UNDERSTANDING]
Vism XX 3. Here is the exposition: there are three kinds of mundane full-understanding,
that is, full-understanding as the known, full-understanding as investigation,
and full-understanding as abandoning, with reference to which it was said:
“Understanding that is direct-knowledge is knowledge in the sense of being
known. Understanding that is full-understanding is knowledge in the sense of
investigating. Understanding that is abandoning is knowledge in the sense of
giving up” (Paþis I 87).
...
Ron Crouch wrote: The key thing here is to understand that if you are having these negative experiences, as Mahasi points out, it is part and parcel of the path. Don't blame yourself or think you've really messed up. This is insight.
:anjali:
Mike
User avatar
robertk
Posts: 5613
Joined: Sat Jan 03, 2009 2:08 am

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by robertk »

Ron Crouch wrote:
Ron Crouch wrote: The key thing here is to understand that if you are having these negative experiences, as Mahasi points out, it is part and parcel of the path. Don't blame yourself or think you've really messed up. This is insight.
:anjali:
Mike
Negative experiences' like aversion and fear can arise anytime, to anyone Buddhist or not, but thinking they are signs of insight is delusion.

The path is actually the gradual development of wisdom, which is always and automatically also the development of detachment (especailly from attachment to wrongview).

If these wrong ideas persist one might even have some 'experience' they believe is the attainment of nibbana.

http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nik ... he_ten.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness


From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking; [.....]; from that wrong effort. From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release......




---------------------------------------
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Nyana »

robertk wrote:Negative experiences' like aversion and fear can arise anytime, to anyone Buddhist or not, but thinking they are signs of insight is delusion.
Yes, in the context of the actual Pāli Abhidhammapiṭaka all skillful mental states and all path and fruition cognitions are accompanied by either joy and non-carnal pleasure or equanimity.
robertk wrote:The path is actually the gradual development of wisdom, which is always and automatically also the development of detachment (especailly from attachment to wrongview).
And the elimination of fetters.
befriend
Posts: 2284
Joined: Thu Jun 09, 2011 11:39 am

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by befriend »

what about revulsion, there is revulsion then there is dispassion. when i see something as impermenent i then see it as suffering seeing the object as suffering there is revulsion towards it, disgust.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
Nyana
Posts: 2233
Joined: Tue Apr 27, 2010 11:56 am

Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Nyana »

befriend wrote:what about revulsion, there is revulsion then there is dispassion. when i see something as impermenent i then see it as suffering seeing the object as suffering there is revulsion towards it, disgust.
Translating nibbidā as "revulsion" is just as problematic as translating dukkha as "suffering." Neither carries the full range of meaning in the context of Buddhist insight. Moreover, if nibbidā isn't associated with joy or equanimity it's likely not very skillful or liberating. There's a distinction to be made between cultivating insight and cultivating hindrances.

The insight stages are advanced levels of practice with one very specific objective: to get outta Dodge and never come back. I suspect that most beginner and intermediate students aren't mentally or emotionally prepared for undertaking this sort of practice.

And when this type of practice is complicated by a machismo attitude akin to relating to meditation as if it were some kind of extreme sport, then there's little wonder why many problems and difficulties arise. This does students a disservice.

It's likely far more appropriate, effective, and beneficial to offer the majority of laypersons instruction on the 6 recollections and/or the 4 brahmavihārā.
Post Reply