Why Meditate?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

robertk wrote:
Ron Crouch wrote:
Ron Crouch wrote: The key thing here is to understand that if you are having these negative experiences, as Mahasi points out, it is part and parcel of the path. Don't blame yourself or think you've really messed up. This is insight.
:anjali:
Mike
Negative experiences' like aversion and fear can arise anytime, to anyone Buddhist or not, but thinking they are signs of insight is delusion.

The path is actually the gradual development of wisdom, which is always and automatically also the development of detachment (especailly from attachment to wrongview).

If these wrong ideas persist one might even have some 'experience' they believe is the attainment of nibbana.

http://www.abhidhamma.org/anguttara_nik ... he_ten.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Anguttara Nikaya Book of the tens XI (iii) 103 Wrongness


From wrong view proceeds wrong thinking; [.....]; from that wrong effort. From wrong effort proceeds wrong mindfulness; from that wrong concentration. From wrong concentration proceeds wrong knowledge. From wrong knowledge proceeds wrong release......




---------------------------------------
Hi RobertK, thanks for getting back about this. Here's the thing though, this quote could apply to either your view or mine. It just says that having wrong thinking leads to a bad outcome. But who is wrong here?

Remember that you're claiming, and a few others as well, that if one has an insight properly then it never comes with suffering. If it does then the person is doing something wrong.

Could you provide a supporting citation for that view? If not, then let's just call it a personal opinion, rather than claim it is in the commentaries.
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manas
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by manas »

Ron Crouch wrote:
Remember that you're claiming, and a few others as well, that if one has an insight properly then it never comes with suffering. If it does then the person is doing something wrong.

Could you provide a supporting citation for that view? If not, then let's just call it a personal opinion, rather than claim it is in the commentaries.

Hi Ron,

imhe there can be a tremendous amount of suffering involved in getting there - after all, pulling out poisoned arrows from one's heart is painful - but the moment when one sees an aspect of Dhamma one did not see before, is a positive one. One can even look back at the pain it took to get there with a kind of gratitude, because one no longer sees it in the same way.
...

:anjali:
Last edited by manas on Mon May 21, 2012 7:58 am, edited 4 times in total.
To the Buddha-refuge i go; to the Dhamma-refuge i go; to the Sangha-refuge i go.
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by tiltbillings »

manas wrote: . . .
Thanks for that. It is appreciated and useful to hear that sort of thing.

But let me add, it is not only physical pain, but also mental pains -- the fears, anxieties, doubts -- that can arise during practice that are part of this question.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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manas
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by manas »

tiltbillings wrote:
manas wrote: . . .
Thanks for that. It is appreciated and useful to hear that sort of thing.

But let me add, it is not only physical pain, but also mental pains -- the fears, anxieties, doubts -- that can arise during practice that are part of this question.
Hi Tilt,

yes, that's true; I have much work to do regarding mental pains, not just physical ones. Anyway, thanks for the encouragement re my post.

:anjali:
Last edited by manas on Sat May 19, 2012 8:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Geoff, Robert, Ron,
Ñāṇa wrote:
robertk wrote:Negative experiences' like aversion and fear can arise anytime, to anyone Buddhist or not, but thinking they are signs of insight is delusion.
Yes, in the context of the actual Pāli Abhidhammapiṭaka all skillful mental states and all path and fruition cognitions are accompanied by either joy and non-carnal pleasure or equanimity.
Thank you for the continuing interesting discussion.

I'm still wondering whether a useful point is being submerged, perhaps by Ron being slightly imprecise with one or two of his sentences that seemed to be saying that the fear was the insight. In the rest of his discussion I took him to be agreeing that the skilful insights were, indeed, free of aversion and fear (as in the Visuddhimagga passage I quoted on the terror nana), but that some of the other passages (and various reported experiences from modern teachers and practitioners) suggest that various fears and so on are possible/normal in the process of getting to the insights.

Based on my reading of suttas and commentaries, it seems unlikely that a practitioner, even a very skilled one, would not sometimes have various difficulties. I think we agree that those difficulties are not, in themselves, insights. The interesting question is whether it is possible to get to the insights without some disturbing experiences along the way.

:anjali:
Mike
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

Yes, yes and yes!

This is exactly it. "Insight knowledge" is not a thing, it's a process with three steps. First, the experience of the insight knowledge (which can be pleasant, painful or neutral). Then the investigation of the the phenomena. Then the letting go - experience of freedom.

Don't parse out just the freedom part alone and say that is the only aspect that constitutes insight.
Nyana
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Nyana »

mikenz66 wrote:Based on my reading of suttas and commentaries, it seems unlikely that a practitioner, even a very skilled one, would not sometimes have various difficulties. I think we agree that those difficulties are not, in themselves, insights. The interesting question is whether it is possible to get to the insights without some disturbing experiences along the way.
The insight stages can bring up all sorts of stuff. Which is why I think it's important to learn to differentiate between skillful and unskillful mental processes, even subtle ones. Again, there's a distinction to be made between cultivating liberating insight and cultivating hindrances.

Generally, my only concerns are:

(i) when people are encouraged by teachers and training centers to enter into practices that they aren't prepared for. I think it's prudent for many people to slow down the training process and engage in a more gradual, step-wise immersion into meditation practices.

(ii) when other conditions are created that will invariably give rise to painful experiences, motivated by the idea that this in itself will help generate insight into dukkha. I think this is a highly questionable approach, and probably isn't very effective.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by mikenz66 »

Hi Geoff,

Thank you for your post.
Ñāṇa wrote: The insight stages can bring up all sorts of stuff. Which is why I think it's important to learn to differentiate between skillful and unskillful mental processes, even subtle ones. Again, there's a distinction to be made between cultivating liberating insight and cultivating hindrances.
Certainly. Which is why it is essential to have good guidance. I've had times where I could have been stuck in a dead end for a long time if I hadn't had someone to tell me that I was off on a tangent. [In my case it's often a laziness/detachment sort of thing that is very pleasant and is easily confused with equanimity and good samadhi...]

And I think that it's worth discussing these things, so practitioners will be aware that very unsettling things can happen, it's not some "failing" on their part, and they may well want to take note of your following advice:
Ñāṇa wrote: Generally, my only concerns are:

(i) when people are encouraged by teachers and training centers to enter into practices that they aren't prepared for. I think it's prudent for many people to slow down the training process and engage in a more gradual, step-wise immersion into meditation practices.
Sure, the guidance needs to be responsible.
Ñāṇa wrote: (ii) when other conditions are created that will invariably give rise to painful experiences, motivated by the idea that this in itself will help generate insight into dukkha. I think this is a highly questionable approach, and probably isn't very effective.
Yes, I don't see any need to create conditions for more dukkha. Anything I've tried brings up quite enough to study without the need to create more...

:anjali:
Mike
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Ben
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ben »

mikenz66 wrote:Geoff, Robert, Ron,
Ñāṇa wrote:
robertk wrote:Negative experiences' like aversion and fear can arise anytime, to anyone Buddhist or not, but thinking they are signs of insight is delusion.
Yes, in the context of the actual Pāli Abhidhammapiṭaka all skillful mental states and all path and fruition cognitions are accompanied by either joy and non-carnal pleasure or equanimity.
Thank you for the continuing interesting discussion.

I'm still wondering whether a useful point is being submerged, perhaps by Ron being slightly imprecise with one or two of his sentences that seemed to be saying that the fear was the insight. In the rest of his discussion I took him to be agreeing that the skilful insights were, indeed, free of aversion and fear (as in the Visuddhimagga passage I quoted on the terror nana), but that some of the other passages (and various reported experiences from modern teachers and practitioners) suggest that various fears and so on are possible/normal in the process of getting to the insights.

Based on my reading of suttas and commentaries, it seems unlikely that a practitioner, even a very skilled one, would not sometimes have various difficulties. I think we agree that those difficulties are not, in themselves, insights. The interesting question is whether it is possible to get to the insights without some disturbing experiences along the way.

:anjali:
Mike
Indeed. I think some of those difficulties either accompany or occur within the proximity of the arising of insight. And what we know of the nanas as explained in the Vism and through direct experience is that "fear", "terror", or "revulsion", while heavily pregnant with emotional import in English, the reality is that the insight itself has equanimity as a characteristic. Maybe I am mangling what I am trying to say...
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

There is another subtext that I'm picking up in some of the posts, which I find a little concerning, and I'd like to pose a question and get some feedback:

How is it decided who is ready to do insight practice? Who should decides this?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Ron,
Ron Crouch wrote:How is it decided who is ready to do insight practice? Who should decides this?
Given that you teach people, what do you expect of them as a pre-cursor? What determines their readiness? Who would you not accept and why?

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ron Crouch »

I know this is a pretty strictly Theravadin community, but I just found this video of Buddhist scholar and Zen teacher Shinzen Young wonderfully describing the dukkha nanas and their correlates in Christianity. Thought I'd share it because it fits so well into our conversation here:



Also, let me just add that I'm really enjoying this thread. You guys at Dhamma Wheel have been gracious in letting me share my views (which appear to be very different than many of those held here) and I feel many are sincerely trying to understand through their disagreements - this is a good place!
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tiltbillings
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by tiltbillings »

Ron Crouch wrote:Also, let me just add that I'm really enjoying this thread. You guys at Dhamma Wheel have been gracious in letting me share my views (which appear to be very different than many of those held here) and I feel many are sincerely trying to understand through their disagreements - this is a good place!
Thank you for saying. And thank you for your input and sharing. It is appreciated.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Ben
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Re: Why Meditate?

Post by Ben »

tiltbillings wrote:
Ron Crouch wrote:Also, let me just add that I'm really enjoying this thread. You guys at Dhamma Wheel have been gracious in letting me share my views (which appear to be very different than many of those held here) and I feel many are sincerely trying to understand through their disagreements - this is a good place!
Thank you for saying. And thank you for your input and sharing. It is appreciated.
Seconded! And, its good to have you here too, Ron!
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
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