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Why Meditate? - Page 7 - Dhamma Wheel

Why Meditate?

General discussion of issues related to Theravada Meditation, e.g. meditation postures, developing a regular sitting practice, skillfully relating to difficulties and hindrances, etc.
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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 20, 2012 4:44 am


Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby Ron Crouch » Sun May 20, 2012 6:28 am


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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby retrofuturist » Sun May 20, 2012 7:14 am

Greetings Ron,

Thank you very much for taking the time to write such a comprehensive and informative response to my question. I look forward to reading some of the responses that it (hopefully) elicits.

It's not something I can comment on directly, since I'm not directly involved with those sub-cultures in which "outsourcing" is prevalent, but I appreciated reading about your exposure and experiences.

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 20, 2012 9:12 am


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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby Nyana » Sun May 20, 2012 9:24 am


Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby Ron Crouch » Sun May 20, 2012 3:22 pm


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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby Nyana » Sun May 20, 2012 4:00 pm


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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby Goofaholix » Sun May 20, 2012 11:10 pm


Buckwheat
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby Buckwheat » Mon May 21, 2012 12:12 am

Hi Ron,
A lot of what you wrote above seems to be a symptom of poor teaching, which goes to the importance of finding the right teacher. And we come around to Retro's point that when people parade around pretending to proclaim the words of the Buddha, it only muddles the issue. We should always be clear when discussing sources. Visudhimegga is not the words of the Buddha. Zen Koans are not the words of the Buddha. Those writings may have value, but we have to be clear about who wrote them and who did not.

I have only had the opportunity to meet face to face with a few wise souls, but when I did they are able to read into my question deeper than I realized I was asking, and they usually give very direct and powerful advice that acknowledges the insights I have had, while pointing to those I still need to illuminate. Most importantly, they give me optimism about my path, and a way to move forward. I don't think that's pandering, I think it's help.

I do see a dark night aspect of the path, but I don't blame it on the path. In my teens I was totally lost and miserable, so I built up this sense of self based on what society considers a good person. Now, I am in the middle of another crisis because, through Buddhism and meditation, I have seen what a sham that all was. Now I am trying to figure out how to live my life in accordance with the dhamma, which is very frustrating at this point for me. However, this is not because of the Buddha's path. It is because my past karma led me to build a life based on lies, avoiding confrontation, indulgence in pleasures, and careless waste of precious resources. Trying to correct those errors is causing me a great deal of stress, but it's not the Buddha's fault. It's not meditation's fault. It is my fault for building up a self that was bound to crash at one point or another anyway. And the way out of this dark night seems to be clearly more Buddhism, not less. When I experiment with going back to my old ways, that is when the dark night gets darker. When I experiment with going deeper into meditation, that is when the dark night lightens a bit.

A lot of the victim's of meditation you mention, I think we have to a) direct them to competent teachers, and b) realize they may have been even worse off without the meditation. I'm 90% certain I would be dead right now without Buddhism entering my life. I'll take a dark night over suicide.

Finally - thanks for your open discussion.
Sotthī hontu nirantaraṃ - May you forever be well.

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tiltbillings
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 21, 2012 1:21 am


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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 21, 2012 1:40 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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tiltbillings
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby tiltbillings » Mon May 21, 2012 1:42 am


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Dmytro
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby Dmytro » Mon May 21, 2012 5:02 am



Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby Ron Crouch » Mon May 21, 2012 5:25 am


Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby Ron Crouch » Mon May 21, 2012 5:36 am

For further information on how the concept of Buddhism as a religion (and a lot of other things in buddhism) are really western misunderstandings of the cultural context, check out this series of wonderful talks by linguist and dharma teacher John Peacock called "Buddhism Before the Theravada":

http://www.audiodharma.org/teacher/207/

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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 21, 2012 5:43 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine

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Prasadachitta
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby Prasadachitta » Mon May 21, 2012 6:01 am

"Beautifully taught is the Lord's Dhamma, immediately apparent, timeless, of the nature of a personal invitation, progressive, to be attained by the wise, each for himself." Anguttara Nikaya V.332

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mikenz66
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 21, 2012 6:06 am


Ron Crouch
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby Ron Crouch » Mon May 21, 2012 9:33 am

"I, and presumably Ron, understood that post as saying: "Ron is one of those muddling the issue", judging from his reply"


Yes indeed - that is how I understood it.

Retro - in reading you I kind of go back and forth. In some respects you're posting some provoking and interesting stuff. However, you've closely skirted the line in flat-out calling me a fraud by insinuating that I'm slandering the buddha or that I'm misrepresenting what I teach. I've enjoyed the discussion, but I'm not going to continue if that continues. Life is simply too short for that.

capisce?

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retrofuturist
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Re: Why Meditate?

Postby retrofuturist » Mon May 21, 2012 10:24 am

"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"To argue with a person who has renounced the use of reason is like administering medicine to the dead" - Thomas Paine


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