the great vegetarian debate

Exploring Theravāda's connections to other paths - what can we learn from other traditions, religions and philosophies?
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retrofuturist
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Post by retrofuturist »

There's a Mahayana Art Gallery in the city of Melbourne that does some decent mock-meat food.

Alas, the menu has shrunk over the last few months... but it's still pretty good.

:stirthepot:

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Retro. :)
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Jechbi
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Post by Jechbi »

This is a great thread, with some excellent points in my opinion. But I do wonder where Kathy Freston got her stats. Many of them seem suspect.

There are seven pages of comments associated with her article over at The Huffington Post. Worth browsing. Here's her bio:
Kathy Freston is a self-help author and personal growth and spirituality counselor. She is the author of "The One: Discovering the Secrets of Soul Mate Love" and "Expect a Miracle: Seven Spiritual Steps to Finding the Right Relationship." Her Transformational Meditation CDs offering guided meditations have been featured in W, Self, and Mode. Kathy’s recent television appearances include, “Martha,” “The View,” and “The CBS Early Show.”
Not in any way to diminish the point of the OP, which is right on target (thank you, Venerable). But I tried to check out the stats on snopes.com and found nothing relevant. Can anyone verify Freston's numbers or find their source?

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Ngawang Drolma.
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Post by Ngawang Drolma. »

appicchato wrote:If everyone went vegetarian just for one day, the U.S. would save: :pig:

● 100 billion gallons of water, enough to supply all the homes in New England for almost 4 months;

● 1.5 billion pounds of crops otherwise fed to livestock, enough to feed the state of New Mexico for more than a year;

● 70 million gallons of gas--enough to fuel all the cars of Canada and Mexico combined with plenty to spare;

● 3 million acres of land, an area more than twice the size of Delaware;

● 33 tons of antibiotics.

If everyone went vegetarian just for one day, the U.S. would prevent:

● Greenhouse gas emissions equivalent to 1.2 million tons of CO2, as much as produced by all of France;

● 3 million tons of soil erosion and $70 million in resulting economic damages;

● 4.5 million tons of animal excrement;

● Almost 7 tons of ammonia emissions, a major air pollutant.

My favorite statistic is this: According to Environmental Defense, if every American skipped one meal of chicken per week and substituted vegetarian foods instead, the carbon dioxide savings would be the same as taking more than half a million cars off of U.S. roads. See how easy it is to make an impact?l
Bhante these numbers are amazing. Thanks a lot :namaste:
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Re: Eating Meat...check out the stats...

Post by nathan »

pink_trike wrote:
nathan wrote:
pink_trike wrote:If you have a better view, lay it on me...I'm open to it.
Sure. There is no 'we' just as there is no 'me'. There is a meat-resonating-device like the skin of an apple on the surface of the earth. You are more than welcome to remain a part of it for as long as you like. You can identify with 'me', 'we' or 'it' forever if you wish. It isn't any more or less than what it is if you don't. As you will then.
:namaste:
Of course there is no "me", "we", or "it. Good on you for noticing. But what you haven't seemed to notice is that not everyone else has. So the best we can probably do is model behavior that mirrors the essence of the teachings, if not the letter. That isn't just pretend suffering we're inflicting on living beings. We have the potential to stop doing it. Right here, right now. We can model this for others. All humans are monkeys...so let's use the "monkey see, monkey do" phenomenon wisely.
I don't disagree with anything you've posted in the thread Mr. Trike. I'm simply not optimistic about any of this as I have been working in these kinds of areas quite actively for decades now. Unfortunately those of us who are 'modeling' all sorts of alternatives are not considered 'models' by more than a handful (we DO continue in it regardless of quantitative results) of the mass of monkeys who are filing sheep-like towards their corporate slaughter and it will be messy for all of us, like it or not. I have no difficulty at all envisioning the future the Buddha describes for us (in, I wish I could remember which sutta it is!) wherein the human species, alone, is reduced to living underground in a world with no sunlight, feeding upon each other, and dying before ten years of age. I don't see any indications yet of any viable counter-currents running against the strong current of human and world affairs which appears inexorably compelled to take things in this direction. The sun looks particularly brilliant at sunset, so to speak. I hope to be proven wrong of course but would rather continue to present things unflinchingly in 'these terms' for the 'monkeys'. I consider it, 'fair warning'.
But whoever walking, standing, sitting, or lying down overcomes thought, delighting in the stilling of thought: he's capable, a monk like this, of touching superlative self-awakening. § 110. {Iti 4.11; Iti 115}
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Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Post by DNS »

I found this article over at our other site: http://www.dharmawheel.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
sraddha wrote:
An interesting article for Buddhists:
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 31,0,0,1,0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Vegan Buddhist Nuns Have Same Bone Density As Non-vegetarians!
Great study! Not too surprising, in my opinion. Vegan foods, especially green leafy vegetables are loaded with calcium and I have heard that the calcium from the green veggies is actually better absorbed by the body and bones than the animals sources, (such as cheese and milk).
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Re: Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Post by Cittasanto »

but what is the bone density of the average lay person who is vegan or vegi?

there are studies which show that these diets don't necesarily negatively affect bone density in a way which would cause problems later in life such as osteoporosis but none which show bone weight to be on a par with meat eaters.

what has more caffene, 1kg of coffee beans or 1kn of tea leaves? tea leaves
what has more caffene one cup of coffee or one cup of tea? one cup of coffee
Edit - just to show that apearences can be deceiving when it comes to actual intake, in comparison to volume comparison

here is a snippet of an article http://cbs2.com/optimumwellness/Bone.De ... 01849.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Many people, including most physicians, suggest that vegans are at risk for osteoporosis due to their lower protein and calcium intake. In this study, the vegan woman averaged about 370 milligrams of calcium in their daily diet. The current recommended level is 1000 milligrams daily. Non dairy and non-animal sources of calcium include fortified orange juice, fortified cereal, white beans and most beans, tofu, nuts and seeds, carob, dark green leafy veggies (especially collards, turnip greens, beet greens), figs, rhubarb, butternut squash, acorn squash, and molasses. Keep in mind that bone health and integrity does not depend on calcium alone.
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Individual
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Re: Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Post by Individual »

TheDhamma wrote:I found this article over at our other site: http://www.dharmawheel.net/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
sraddha wrote:
An interesting article for Buddhists:
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 31,0,0,1,0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Vegan Buddhist Nuns Have Same Bone Density As Non-vegetarians!
Great study! Not too surprising, in my opinion. Vegan foods, especially green leafy vegetables are loaded with calcium and I have heard that the calcium from the green veggies is actually better absorbed by the body and bones than the animals sources, (such as cheese and milk).
Two questions to examine, however:
1) How long have they been vegans?
2) Is the bone density of nuns lower than that of the average population? (Could it be that eating only one meal a day makes them both have comparably low bone-density that is therefore less distinguishable?)
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Re: Vegan Buddhist nuns have same bone density as non-veggies

Post by DNS »

Individual wrote: Two questions to examine, however:
1) How long have they been vegans?
2) Is the bone density of nuns lower than that of the average population? (Could it be that eating only one meal a day makes them both have comparably low bone-density that is therefore less distinguishable?)
The article did not say how long they have been vegans, but it did mention that the non-vegans were of the same age.

The nuns did not have significantly less bone density from the other group, which was from the average population, same ages as the nuns.
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by DNS »

I thought I would bump this poll up in case there are some who have not 'voted' yet in this poll.

On another site, with Buddhists from all traditions, the voting is about 50-50 but here where it is predominantly Theravadins, the vegetarian percentage is higher. This goes against much conventional thinking that Mahayana = vegetarian, Theravada = non-veg. But of course the reality is that there are a high percentage of vegetarians and non-vegetarians in both Mahayana and Theravada.
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by nomad »

I am a straight meat-eater, but hope that one day I can make a change and possibly go vegetarian. I’ve considered it on several occasions and even tried to abstain for a short amount of time, but it seems like too much of a change at this point in my life. I feel like I am too busy sorting out the many other details of my existence that I feel are more important to my spiritual path. However, I always leave my options open.

~nomad

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by kannada »

Tex wrote:DISCLAIMER: Voting intended for Theravadins only please; discussion is of course welcomed from all traditions.
With respect to Tex's wishes I did not vote, however I have been a vegetarian for the last 36 years...

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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by adamposey »

I've chosen to go with a middle way on this matter. I do not want to take a hardline "yes" or "no" answer. During my admittedly limited research into Buddhism and Theravada specifically this topic has come up and I've found this to be the best answer without going to an extreme: "Yes, but..."

What I mean by that is that the bhikkus, who are supposed to be an example for us, are not necessarily strict vegetarians. They are supposed to accept the generosity of others, and should that include meat, then so be it. What that says to me is that it is best to minimize one's footprint of death in the world to the greatest extent possible and becoming a vegetarian is a means to that end. But that said there are cultural traditions in my country, etc., that meat plays a very important part in. Would I be a good buddhist to refuse the generosity of my family when they spend hours preparing a meat based food for holidays? Should I burden them with my special diet? In my case I've decided the answer is "no," and so I'll be a vegetarian when it comes to my personal decisions of what to buy for myself, but when it comes to others offering me food—all bets are off.

That said.. I'm Theravada but I don't know how I should answer this poll.
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Jechbi
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by Jechbi »

Rain soddens what is kept wrapped up,
But never soddens what is open;
Uncover, then, what is concealed,
Lest it be soddened by the rain.
André
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by André »

I'm not a vegetarian, but I'm considering it. If I do become one, then I would still eat meat if I were offered it. That much am I certain of.
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Potato
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Re: Poll: Are you vegetarian/vegan?

Post by Potato »

I voted before I saw the disclaimer. :(

I have been vegetarian for five years.
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