ajahn chah

On the cultivation of insight/wisdom
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mikenz66
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by mikenz66 »

Cittasanto wrote:Hi Mike,
No not confusing, just clarifying, what is not being talked about - initially - and the second time (your quote), simply using words used by Tilt to make the same point, which is the vipassana tradition as in Goenka, Mahasi and other Burmese teachers is not what Ajahn Chah taught specifically, not trying to say that there would be no similarities, formal/informal....
The vipassana tradition is diverse enough without throwing every meditation teacher in
Well, I guess some people just like to see differences, perhaps because they want to see something "special" about particular teachers. Ajahn Chah was clearly an extremely gifted and creative in his teaching but since it's all application of Buddha-Dhamma it's not surprising that his teachings look quite familiar to those of us who come from slightly different backgrounds.

:anjali:
Mike
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Cittasanto
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by Cittasanto »

mikenz66 wrote:
Cittasanto wrote:Hi Mike,
No not confusing, just clarifying, what is not being talked about - initially - and the second time (your quote), simply using words used by Tilt to make the same point, which is the vipassana tradition as in Goenka, Mahasi and other Burmese teachers is not what Ajahn Chah taught specifically, not trying to say that there would be no similarities, formal/informal....
The vipassana tradition is diverse enough without throwing every meditation teacher in
Well, I guess some people just like to see differences, perhaps because they want to see something "special" about particular teachers. Ajahn Chah was clearly an extremely gifted and creative in his teaching but since it's all application of Buddha-Dhamma it's not surprising that his teachings look quite familiar to those of us who come from slightly different backgrounds.

:anjali:
Mike
Hi Mike,
you and I are similare, a certain amount of cross over could be seen, but that doesn't mean you are me and I am you, we are not Identical, or the same.
but what is my background; what do you think I have been saying; and what are the three kinds of conceit?

I will tell you I have not been critisising the Vipassana tradition, or saying there is no cross over, similarities or what ever; only he (Ajahn Chah) doesn't teach a techneque which was called vipassana as in the modern usage from the Burmese Tradition, one particular use of the term.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
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reflection
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by reflection »

This may be of interest.
Meditation is like a single stick of wood. Insight (vipassan?) is one end of the stick and serenity (samatha) the other. If we pick it up, does only one end come up or do both? When anyone picks up a stick both ends rise together. Which part then is vipassan?, and which is samatha? Where does one end and the other begin? They are both the mind. As the mind becomes peaceful, initially the peace will arise from the serenity of samatha. We focus and unify the mind in states of meditative peace (sam?dhi). However, if the peace and stillness of sam?dhi fades away, suffering arises in its place. Why is that? Because the peace afforded by samatha meditation alone is still based on attachment. This attachment can then be a cause of suffering. Serenity is not the end of the path. The Buddha saw from his own experience that such peace of mind was not the ultimate. The causes underlying the process of existence (bhava) had not yet been brought to cessation (nirodha). The conditions for rebirth still existed. His spiritual work had not yet attained perfection. Why? Because there was still suffering. So based on that serenity of samatha he proceeded to contemplate, investigate, and analyze the conditioned nature of reality until he was free of all attachments, even the attachment to serenity. Serenity is still part of the world of conditioned existence and conventional reality. Clinging to this type of peace is clinging to conventional reality, and as long as we cling, we will be mired in existence and rebirth. Delighting in the peace of samatha still leads to further existence and rebirth. Once the mind's restlessness and agitation calms down, one clings to the resultant peace.

So the Buddha examined the causes and conditions underlying existence and rebirth. As long as he had not yet fully penetrated the matter and understood the truth, he continued to probe deeper and deeper with a peaceful mind, reflecting on how all things, peaceful or not, come into existence. His investigation forged ahead until it was clear to him that everything that comes into existence is like a lump of red-hot iron. The five categories of a being's experience (khandhas) are all a lump of red-hot iron. When a lump of iron is glowing red-hot, is there anywhere it can be touched without getting burnt? Is there anywhere at all that is cool? Try touching it on the top, the sides, or underneath. Is there a single spot that can be found that's cool? Impossible. This searing lump of iron is entirely red-hot. We can't even attach to serenity. If we identify with that peace, assuming that there is someone who is calm and serene, this reinforces the sense that there is an independent self or soul. This sense of self is part of conventional reality. Thinking, "I'm peaceful", "I'm agitated", "I'm good", "I'm bad", "I'm happy", or "I'm unhappy", we are caught in more existence and birth. It's more suffering. If our happiness vanishes, then we're unhappy instead. When our sorrow vanishes, then we're happy again. Caught in this endless cycle, we revolve repeatedly through heaven and hell.


http://www.amaravati.org/index.php/teac ... eace.html/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
So Ajahn Chahs 'vipassana' method is inseperable from the 'samatha' side.
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bodom
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by bodom »

a story recounted by Ajahn Amaro:
I have heard Ajahn Sumedho recount a few times over the years that, for the first year of his monastic life, he had been practising using the instructions from a Ch'an meditation retreat given by the Ven. Master Hsu Yun, and that he had used the Dharma talks from that retreat given in China as his basic meditation instruction. When he went to Wat Pah Pong, Ajahn Chah asked him what kind of meditation he had been doing, at first he thought, "Oh no, he's going to get me to give this up and do his … method." But, when Ajahn Sumedho described what he had been doing and mentioned that it had had excellent results, Ajahn Chah said, "Oh, very good, just carry on doing that."
http://www.budsas.org/ebud/ebdha082.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

:anjali:
Liberation is the inevitable fruit of the path and is bound to blossom forth when there is steady and persistent practice. The only requirements for reaching the final goal are two: to start and to continue. If these requirements are met there is no doubt the goal will be attained. This is the Dhamma, the undeviating law.

- BB
befriend
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by befriend »

it might help to see how ajahm sumedho teaches meditation.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.
hermitwin
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by hermitwin »

Once again, the term 'vipassana' comes up.
Beginners have a hard time separating the unique significance
of this word in the burmese tradition vs others eg thai tradition.
In the burmese tradition (mahasi sayadaw) tradition, 'vipassana' is THE method taught by Buddha to reach enlightenment.
In other traditions, "vipassana" means insight. It is not a type of meditation.
I think it would be extremely helpful if the followers of mahasi sayadaw, goenka will acknowledge this. Otherwise, many people will remain confused, as I was for a long time.
I am not trying to debate whether the mahasi sayadaw method is good or not. But hoping to clear up a very common confusion faced by many beginners.
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retrofuturist
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings Hermitwin,

Thanks for sharing the experiences of your former confusion.

As I see it, the meditation itself might rightly be called satipatthana, whereas the possible result of that satipatthana practice is vipassana (clear seeing).

Would the use of such terminology have prevented confusion?

And for anyone who is still confused...

One Tool Among Many : The Place of Vipassana in Buddhist Practice
by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... etool.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Metta,
Retro. :)
"Whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things."
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tiltbillings
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by tiltbillings »

hermitwin wrote:Once again, the term 'vipassana' comes up.
Beginners have a hard time separating the unique significance
of this word in the burmese tradition vs others eg thai tradition.
In the burmese tradition (mahasi sayadaw) tradition, 'vipassana' is THE method taught by Buddha to reach enlightenment.
Actually, not. The methodology that cultivates the factors leads to insight got called insight/vipassana well after the fact. The Burmese progenitors of this practice knew full well how vipassana is used in the suttas and commentaries. And that something I have heard explained by teachers more than once at vipassana retreats.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
hermitwin
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by hermitwin »

"As I see it, the meditation itself might rightly be called satipatthana, whereas the possible result of that satipatthana practice is vipassana (clear seeing)."

thanks retro, i am in full agreement.
hermitwin
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by hermitwin »

"Actually, not. The methodology that cultivates the factors leads to insight got called insight/vipassana well after the fact. The Burmese progenitors of this practice knew full well how vipassana is used in the suttas and commentaries. And that something I have heard explained by teachers more than once at vipassana retreats."

dear tilt, you are entitled to your opinion. you may even back your opinion with credible support. but the point is, there are other schools outside the mahasi traditin wil disagree with you. you may even find other schools outside the mahasi tradition which agree with you.
it is however important to present the bigger picture of the diversity of views concerning 'vipassana'. esp since we are talking about ajahn chah here.
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tiltbillings
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by tiltbillings »

hermitwin wrote:it is however important to present the bigger picture of the diversity of views concerning 'vipassana'. esp since we are talking about ajahn chah here.
If that is your point, I do not see anyone disagreeing with you.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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Cittasanto
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by Cittasanto »

hermitwin wrote:"As I see it, the meditation itself might rightly be called satipatthana, whereas the possible result of that satipatthana practice is vipassana (clear seeing)."

thanks retro, i am in full agreement.
Hi Retro; Hermitwin.
There is a technique called satipatthana originating from Thailand, it involves body movement even in sitting practice.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill
Bakmoon
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by Bakmoon »

Cittasanto wrote: There is a technique called satipatthana originating from Thailand, it involves body movement even in sitting practice.
Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that tradition of meditation is called "Mahasati" developed by a Monk called Ajahn Teean.
The non-doing of any evil,
The performance of what's skillful,
The cleansing of one's own mind:
This is the Buddhas' teaching.
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mikenz66
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by mikenz66 »

Bakmoon wrote: Forgive me if I am wrong, but I believe that tradition of meditation is called "Mahasati" developed by a Monk called Ajahn Teean.
This?
http://www.4ui.com/eart/248eart5.htm" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.curthansonpaintings.com/meditationblog.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It's an interesting technique. Useful as a substitute for walking when you have no space...

:anjali:
Mike
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reflection
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Re: ajahn chah

Post by reflection »

I had that tought at a retreat once. It was simply called Tai Chi :tongue:

Anyway.. doesn't really have to do with the topic. :geek:
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