disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

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daverupa
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by daverupa »

tiltbillings wrote:I opted, however, after the retreat to not pursue jhana practice any further.
tiltbillings wrote:Sure, but the question is: What do you mean by jhana? Whose definition of jhana?
:shrug:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
Brizzy
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by Brizzy »

tiltbillings wrote:
Brizzy wrote:Hi Tilt,

I personally don't find your take on things terribly convincing or that your sutta references in any way back up what you are saying.
As you say, I have my understanding of things and you have yours.

BTW Are you sure you have not attained jhanic powers? 40 decades! You beat me by a mile.

Metta

:smile:
And I personally do not find your "hardened" claim -- which you have now mentioned at least twice now -- meaningful other than it probably says more about you than anything else. It certainly is not a reasonable basis for your ongoing condemnation of Burmese vipassana.

As for jhana, I have stated this before here. During a three month retreat in the late 70's or early 80's I described what I was experiencing to a teacher who had been trained by Mahasi Sayadaw. He said to me that I could do one of two things, simply continue to note what I was experiencing or cultivate what I was experiencing, given that it was indicative of jhana. I choose the latter and I worked with this teacher who was an experienced jhanika. I opted, however, after the retreat to not pursue jhana practice any further. As for jhanic power, damdifino what you mean here.
I am sorry but your personal experiences and your understanding of them carries no more weight than does mine. I have never been impressed by arguments that look to how many retreats someone has done or which teacher someone once had etc. Although such things can be important, I choose not to see them or use them as 'proofs'.
As regards 'jhanic powers', you wrote in your post (inadvertently).........
And my experience streches over 40 decades
So at over 400 years old, I do indeed bow to your greater experience. :bow:

Metta

:smile:
Ignorance is an intentional act.
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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I opted, however, after the retreat to not pursue jhana practice any further.
tiltbillings wrote:Sure, but the question is: What do you mean by jhana? Whose definition of jhana?
Coming out of a traditional model, the Visuddhimagga model, of course. Vipassana jhana, on the other hand, is a different story.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
daverupa
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by daverupa »

tiltbillings wrote:
daverupa wrote:
tiltbillings wrote:I opted, however, after the retreat to not pursue jhana practice any further.
tiltbillings wrote:Sure, but the question is: What do you mean by jhana? Whose definition of jhana?
Coming out of a traditional model, the Visuddhimagga model, of course. Vipassana jhana, on the other hand, is a different story.
:anjali:

:focus:
  • "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting oneself one protects others? By the pursuit, development, and cultivation of the four establishments of mindfulness. It is in such a way that by protecting oneself one protects others.

    "And how is it, bhikkhus, that by protecting others one protects oneself? By patience, harmlessness, goodwill, and sympathy. It is in such a way that by protecting others one protects oneself.

- Sedaka Sutta [SN 47.19]
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tiltbillings
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by tiltbillings »

Brizzy wrote:I am sorry but your personal experiences and your understanding of them carries no more weight than does mine.
Keep in mind, I am not writing or expressing my opinions for you.
I have never been impressed by arguments that look to how many retreats someone has done or which teacher someone once had etc. Although such things can be important, I choose not to see them or use them as 'proofs'.
I am not offering them as "proofs," other than to make the point that my experience is not baseless smokeblowing.
As regards 'jhanic powers', you wrote in your post (inadvertently).........
And my experience streches over 40 decades
So at over 400 years old, I do indeed bow to your greater experience.
Yes, well, I do need to have a word with my proof-reader, but 40+ years or 400, the "hardened mind" claim of yours still fails to resonate, though I have seen people use their practice, and not just vipassana, as a way of blocking emotions and self-knowledge, but that is not the practice done right.
>> Do you see a man wise [enlightened/ariya] in his own eyes? There is more hope for a fool than for him.<< -- Proverbs 26:12

This being is bound to samsara, kamma is his means for going beyond. -- SN I, 38.

“Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?” HPatDH p.723
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marc108
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by marc108 »

tiltbillings wrote:Sure, but the question is: What do you mean by jhana? Whose definition of jhana? This question has been batted about repeatedly here and elsewhere.
right, it seems to be a hotly contended topic. you are probably familiar with the nuances between the Sutta style Jhanas and the Vis. style Jhanas so i wont hash them out. Personally when I say Jhana I'm refering to a Sutta style Jhana where the body is still present, the mind is centered but not fixed, and the realm of physical experience is still there. On an offnote, if it's of interest to you Richard Shankman has a really interesting series where he hashes out the differences from a Canonical standpoint as well as his own experience.

While the OP's description is suggestive of jhana, it is likely better understood as the jhana found in the latter texts, as our friend brizzy accurately points out: "I believe that nimittas and loss of bodily feeling is not part of the jhana process to be found in the suttas." And, of course, opinions on this are going to vary.Again, read through the first of link above, and take a look at bit more of this discussion:
right, I'm far from being capable on instructing someone on Jhana, which is why i left this part out before... my thinking was that he was able to bring up rapture with his breath, which would be the entry point for a less fixed, Sutta style Jhana. I wouldn't think that a non-regular meditator would be able to bring up a Nimitta outside of the retreat experience.

Also, While the Burmese vipassana traditions do not initially put a focus on jhana, which they understand in terms of the Visuddhimagga type of interpretation of jhana, please do keep in mind the practices of the Burmese vipassana tradition cultivate highly refined levels of samadhi, which are essentially indistinguishable from from how some interpret the jhanas from a sutta context. To get an idea of this, take some time with these two talks by highly experienced meditation teachers, which are a nice contrast to the Burmese vipassana naysayers:
I have not been exposed to the Burmese traditions outside of the basics of Mahasi Sayadaws beginner techniques, but i am far from a nay sayer. I would not dare to speak ill of any ordained meditation master. Thanks for the talks, I'll listen to them today while I'm cleaning :anjali:
"It's easy for us to connect with what's wrong with us... and not so easy to feel into, or to allow us, to connect with what's right and what's good in us."
farmer
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by farmer »

Guess who wrote this:
Sometimes, a "light" can appear in the mind at a very early stage of the meditation. However, for all except accomplished meditators, one will find that such "brazen intruders" are highly unstable. If one focuses one's attention on them, one will not get anywhere. It is not the right time for nimitta. It is better to regard them as distractions and go back to the main task of the early stage.
That is Ajahn Brahm, one of the most vocal advocates of jhana practice.

http://www.what-buddha-taught.net/Books ... m#PART_TWO" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

His advice is basically identical to the quote from Ajahn Lee which I pasted earlier in this thread. My point is that even those teachers who teach jhana as the essence of right concentration would advise the OP, who was in the early stages of re-establishing a lapsed meditation practice, to ignore the nimitta and work on establishing a solid foundation in mindfulness.

My own fledgling practice has focused on samatha, with results that I find to be valuable, whether or not they are jhana. I hold the opinion (humbly) that much of what is taught in western Theravada puts too much emphasis on investigation at the expense of concentration. With that said, though, I think we should avoid stirring up conflict where there is no real issue. There appears to be a wide consensus among meditation teachers that it is a mistake for beginning students to get involved with nimitta that arise early on in the practice, and it sounds like the OP got solid advice.
Parth
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by Parth »

Actually this has to be seen in context of a 10 day retreat where the objective is to give reasonably good introduction in dhamma to a new student. In this time frame letting someone go down on the path of jhana could defeat the main purpose of the retreat.

This is not to say that jhana is bad, it's just that the focus at that time is on developing panna, given that minimal available time of 10 days, this takes precedence.

Metta

Parth
amrad
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Re: disturbing experience at a Goenka ten day retreat

Post by amrad »

I have just reread all of your posts in this thread with much interest, and i think that in retrospect i recieved good advice to ignore the experience of the nimitta. After returning from the ten day retreat i have continued to meditate two hours daily, but although it is still easy for me to ''fall'' into deep levels of concentration, the light has not returned. The enthrallment and rapture with the breath being born and dying is easy to attain, but if i enter deeper levels of concentration it seems that i become cranky in my daily life which cant be right effort or perhaps view, so i dont allow my mind to go there.
The Goenka body scan method was given a three month trial, as i told my self when arriving home, that i would do to give the method a fair trial. It however for me was tedious and cumbersome and just felt wrong, so i now watch the breath at the nostrils which seems to allow me to remain mindfull of all my sense doors but still be very relaxed and enraptured. I would most definitely do another retreat, but not at a Goenka center i dont think.
Thank you all for your posts on this and other subjects. When i run into confusion in my practice this is usually the first place i turn.
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