tiltbillings wrote:I opted, however, after the retreat to not pursue jhana practice any further.
tiltbillings wrote:Sure, but the question is: What do you mean by jhana? Whose definition of jhana?
tiltbillings wrote:I opted, however, after the retreat to not pursue jhana practice any further.
tiltbillings wrote:Sure, but the question is: What do you mean by jhana? Whose definition of jhana?
I am sorry but your personal experiences and your understanding of them carries no more weight than does mine. I have never been impressed by arguments that look to how many retreats someone has done or which teacher someone once had etc. Although such things can be important, I choose not to see them or use them as 'proofs'.tiltbillings wrote:And I personally do not find your "hardened" claim -- which you have now mentioned at least twice now -- meaningful other than it probably says more about you than anything else. It certainly is not a reasonable basis for your ongoing condemnation of Burmese vipassana.Brizzy wrote:Hi Tilt,
I personally don't find your take on things terribly convincing or that your sutta references in any way back up what you are saying.
As you say, I have my understanding of things and you have yours.
BTW Are you sure you have not attained jhanic powers? 40 decades! You beat me by a mile.
Metta
As for jhana, I have stated this before here. During a three month retreat in the late 70's or early 80's I described what I was experiencing to a teacher who had been trained by Mahasi Sayadaw. He said to me that I could do one of two things, simply continue to note what I was experiencing or cultivate what I was experiencing, given that it was indicative of jhana. I choose the latter and I worked with this teacher who was an experienced jhanika. I opted, however, after the retreat to not pursue jhana practice any further. As for jhanic power, damdifino what you mean here.
So at over 400 years old, I do indeed bow to your greater experience.And my experience streches over 40 decades
Coming out of a traditional model, the Visuddhimagga model, of course. Vipassana jhana, on the other hand, is a different story.daverupa wrote:tiltbillings wrote:I opted, however, after the retreat to not pursue jhana practice any further.tiltbillings wrote:Sure, but the question is: What do you mean by jhana? Whose definition of jhana?
tiltbillings wrote:Coming out of a traditional model, the Visuddhimagga model, of course. Vipassana jhana, on the other hand, is a different story.daverupa wrote:tiltbillings wrote:I opted, however, after the retreat to not pursue jhana practice any further.tiltbillings wrote:Sure, but the question is: What do you mean by jhana? Whose definition of jhana?
Keep in mind, I am not writing or expressing my opinions for you.Brizzy wrote:I am sorry but your personal experiences and your understanding of them carries no more weight than does mine.
I am not offering them as "proofs," other than to make the point that my experience is not baseless smokeblowing.I have never been impressed by arguments that look to how many retreats someone has done or which teacher someone once had etc. Although such things can be important, I choose not to see them or use them as 'proofs'.
Yes, well, I do need to have a word with my proof-reader, but 40+ years or 400, the "hardened mind" claim of yours still fails to resonate, though I have seen people use their practice, and not just vipassana, as a way of blocking emotions and self-knowledge, but that is not the practice done right.As regards 'jhanic powers', you wrote in your post (inadvertently).........
So at over 400 years old, I do indeed bow to your greater experience.And my experience streches over 40 decades
right, it seems to be a hotly contended topic. you are probably familiar with the nuances between the Sutta style Jhanas and the Vis. style Jhanas so i wont hash them out. Personally when I say Jhana I'm refering to a Sutta style Jhana where the body is still present, the mind is centered but not fixed, and the realm of physical experience is still there. On an offnote, if it's of interest to you Richard Shankman has a really interesting series where he hashes out the differences from a Canonical standpoint as well as his own experience.tiltbillings wrote:Sure, but the question is: What do you mean by jhana? Whose definition of jhana? This question has been batted about repeatedly here and elsewhere.
right, I'm far from being capable on instructing someone on Jhana, which is why i left this part out before... my thinking was that he was able to bring up rapture with his breath, which would be the entry point for a less fixed, Sutta style Jhana. I wouldn't think that a non-regular meditator would be able to bring up a Nimitta outside of the retreat experience.While the OP's description is suggestive of jhana, it is likely better understood as the jhana found in the latter texts, as our friend brizzy accurately points out: "I believe that nimittas and loss of bodily feeling is not part of the jhana process to be found in the suttas." And, of course, opinions on this are going to vary.Again, read through the first of link above, and take a look at bit more of this discussion:
I have not been exposed to the Burmese traditions outside of the basics of Mahasi Sayadaws beginner techniques, but i am far from a nay sayer. I would not dare to speak ill of any ordained meditation master. Thanks for the talks, I'll listen to them today while I'm cleaningAlso, While the Burmese vipassana traditions do not initially put a focus on jhana, which they understand in terms of the Visuddhimagga type of interpretation of jhana, please do keep in mind the practices of the Burmese vipassana tradition cultivate highly refined levels of samadhi, which are essentially indistinguishable from from how some interpret the jhanas from a sutta context. To get an idea of this, take some time with these two talks by highly experienced meditation teachers, which are a nice contrast to the Burmese vipassana naysayers:
That is Ajahn Brahm, one of the most vocal advocates of jhana practice.Sometimes, a "light" can appear in the mind at a very early stage of the meditation. However, for all except accomplished meditators, one will find that such "brazen intruders" are highly unstable. If one focuses one's attention on them, one will not get anywhere. It is not the right time for nimitta. It is better to regard them as distractions and go back to the main task of the early stage.