SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

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SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 15, 2012 7:20 am

SN 12.63 PTS: S ii 97 CDB i 597
Puttamansa Sutta: A Son's Flesh
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu


A meditation on inter-relatedness, showing with four striking similes the suffering inherent in everything the body and mind depend upon for nourishment.

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html

At Savatthi... "There are these four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born. Which four? Physical food, gross or refined; contact as the second, intellectual intention the third, and consciousness the fourth. These are the four nutriments for the maintenance of beings who have come into being or for the support of those in search of a place to be born.

"And how is physical food to be regarded? Suppose a couple, husband & wife, taking meager provisions, were to travel through a desert. With them would be their only baby son, dear & appealing. Then the meager provisions of the couple going through the desert would be used up & depleted while there was still a stretch of the desert yet to be crossed. The thought would occur to them, 'Our meager provisions are used up & depleted while there is still a stretch of this desert yet to be crossed. What if we were to kill this only baby son of ours, dear & appealing, and make dried meat & jerky. That way — chewing on the flesh of our son — at least the two of us would make it through this desert. Otherwise, all three of us would perish.' So they would kill their only baby son, loved & endearing, and make dried meat & jerky. Chewing on the flesh of their son, they would make it through the desert. While eating the flesh of their only son, they would beat their breasts, [crying,] 'Where have you gone, our only baby son? Where have you gone, our only baby son?' Now what do you think, monks: Would that couple eat that food playfully or for intoxication, or for putting on bulk, or for beautification?"

"No, lord."

"Wouldn't they eat that food simply for the sake of making it through that desert?"

"Yes, lord."

"In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of physical food to be regarded. When physical food is comprehended, passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended. When passion for the five strings of sensuality is comprehended, there is no fetter bound by which a disciple of the noble ones would come back again to this world.

"And how is the nutriment of contact to be regarded? Suppose a flayed cow were to stand leaning against a wall. The creatures living in the wall would chew on it. If it were to stand leaning against a tree, the creatures living in the tree would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to water, the creatures living in the water would chew on it. If it were to stand exposed to the air, the creatures living in the air would chew on it. For wherever the flayed cow were to stand exposed, the creatures living there would chew on it. In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of contact to be regarded. When the nutriment of contact is comprehended, the three feelings [pleasure, pain, neither pleasure nor pain] are comprehended. When the three feelings are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do.

"And how is the nutriment of intellectual intention to be regarded? Suppose there were a pit of glowing embers, deeper than a man's height, full of embers that were neither flaming nor smoking, and a man were to come along — loving life, hating death, loving pleasure, abhorring pain — and two strong men, having grabbed him by the arms, were to drag him to the pit of embers. To get far away would be that man's intention, far away would be his wish, far away would be his aspiration. Why is that? Because he would realize, 'If I fall into this pit of glowing embers, I will meet with death from that cause, or with death-like pain.' In the same way, I tell you, is the nutriment of intellectual intention to be regarded. When the nutriment of intellectual intention is comprehended, the three forms of craving [for sensuality, for becoming, and for non-becoming] are comprehended. When the three forms of craving are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do.

"And how is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded? Suppose that, having arrested a thief, a criminal, they were to show him to the king: 'This is a thief, a criminal for you, your majesty. Impose on him whatever punishment you like.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the morning with a hundred spears. Then the king would say at noon, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him at noon with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him at noon with a hundred spears. Then the king would say in the evening, 'Men, how is that man?' 'Still alive, your majesty.' So the king would say, 'Go, men, and shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears.' So they would shoot him in the evening with a hundred spears. Now what do you think, monks: Would that man, being shot with three hundred spears a day, experience pain & distress from that cause?"

"Even if he were to be shot with only one spear, lord, he would experience pain & distress from that cause, to say nothing of three hundred spears."

"In the same way, I tell you, monks, is the nutriment of consciousness to be regarded. When the nutriment of consciousness is comprehended, name & form are comprehended. When name & form are comprehended, I tell you, there is nothing further for a disciple of the noble ones to do."

See also:
SN 12.11; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
SN 12.12; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
SN 12.31; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
SN 12.64; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
AN 10.27; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
The Four Nutriments of Life by Nyanaponika Thera.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... el105.html

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Re: SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 15, 2012 7:43 am

SN 12.63 PTS: S ii 97 CDB i 597
Puttamansa Sutta: A Son's Flesh
translated from the Pali by Nyanaponika Thera


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ypo.htmlAt Savatthi.

"There are, O monks, four nutriments[1] for the sustenance of beings born, and for the support of beings seeking birth.[2] What are the four?

"Edible food, coarse and fine;[3] secondly, sense-impression;[4] thirdly, volitional thought;[5] fourthly, consciousness.[6]

"How, O monks, should the nutriment edible food be considered? Suppose a couple, husband and wife, have set out on a journey through the desert, carrying only limited provisions. They have with them their only son, dearly beloved by them. Now, while these two traveled through the desert, their limited stock of provisions ran out and came to an end, but there was still a stretch of desert not yet crossed. Then the two thought: 'Our small stock of provisions has run out, it has come to an end; and there is still a stretch of desert that is not yet crossed. Should we not kill our only son, so dearly beloved, prepare dried and roasted meat, and eating our son's flesh, we may cross in that way the remaining part of the desert, lest all three of us perish?'

"And these two, husband and wife, killed their only son, so dearly beloved by them, prepared dried and roasted meat, and, eating their son's flesh, crossed in that way the remaining part of the desert. And while eating their son's flesh, they were beating their breast and crying: 'Where are you, our only and beloved son? Where are you, our only and beloved son?'

"What do you think, O monks? Will they eat the food for the pleasure of it, for enjoyment, for comeliness' sake, for (the body's) embellishment?"[7]

"Certainly not, O Lord."

"Will they not rather eat the food merely for the sake of crossing the desert?"

"So it is, O Lord."

"In the same manner, I say, O monks, should edible food be considered. If, O monks, the nutriment edible food is comprehended, the lust for the five sense-objects is (thereby) comprehended. And if lust for the five sense-objects is comprehended, there is no fetter enchained by which a noble disciple might come to this world again.[8]

"And how, O monks, should the nutriment sense-impression be considered? Suppose, O monks, there is a skinned cow that stands close to a wall, then the creatures living in the wall will nibble at the cow; and if the skinned cow stands near a tree, then the creatures living in the tree will nibble at it; if it stands in the water, the creatures living in the water will nibble at it; if it stands in the open air, the creatures living in the air will nibble at it. Wherever that skinned cow stands, the creatures living there will nibble at it.

"In that manner, I say, O monks, should the nutriment sense-impression be considered. If the nutriment sense-impression is comprehended, the three kinds of feeling[9] are thereby comprehended. And if the three kinds of feeling are comprehended, there is, I say, no further work left to do for the noble disciple.[10]

"And how, O monks, should the nutriment volitional thought be considered? Suppose, O monks, there is a pit of glowing embers, filled to cover a man's height, with embers glowing without flames and smoke. Now a man comes that way, who loves life and does not wish to die, who wishes for happiness and detests suffering. Then two strong men would seize both his arms and drag him to the pit of glowing embers. Then, O monks, far away from it would recoil that man's will, far away from it his longing, far away his inclination. And why? Because the man knows: 'If I fall into that pit of glowing embers, I shall meet death or deadly pain.'

"In that manner, I say, O monks, should the nutriment volitional thought be considered. If the nutriment volitional thought is comprehended, the three kinds of craving[11] are thereby comprehended. And if the three kinds of craving are comprehended, there is, I say, no further work left to do for the noble disciple.

"And how, O monks, should the nutriment consciousness be considered? Suppose, O monks, people have seized a criminal, a robber, and brought him before the king saying: 'This is a criminal, a robber, O Majesty! Mete out to him the punishment you think fit!' Then the king would tell them: 'Go, and in the morning strike this man with a hundred spears!' And they strike him in the morning with a hundred spears. At noon the king would ask his men: 'How is that man?' — 'He is still alive, Your Majesty.' — 'Then go and strike him again at noontime with a hundred spears!' So they did, and in the evening the king asks them again: 'How is that man?' — 'He is still alive.' — 'Then go and in the evening strike him again with a hundred spears!' And so they did.

"What do you think, O monks? Will that man, struck with three hundred spears during a day, suffer pain and torment owing to that?"

"Even if he were to be struck only by a single spear, he would suffer pain and torment owing to that. How much more if he is being struck by three hundred spears!"

"In that manner, I say, O monks, should the nutriment consciousness be considered. If the nutriment consciousness is comprehended, mind-and-matter are thereby comprehended. And if mind and body are comprehended, there is, I say, no further work left to do for the noble disciple."

Notes

1. Paali: aahaara; from aaharati, to take up, to take on to oneself; to bring, carry, fetch.

2. Of beings born — bhuutaanam; lit.: of those who have come to existence. — Of beings seeking birth — bhavesinam, lit.: of these seeking existence. The latter term refers, according to the Commentary, in the case of egg-born and womb-born beings, to the period before they have emerged from the egg shell or the membranous sheath. Beings born of moisture (sedaja) or spontaneously (opapaatika) are called "seeking birth" at their first thought moment.

3. "Edible food," kabali"nkaaro aahaaro, lit.: "morsel-made food." Comy: "It is a term for the nutritive essence (ojaa) of which boiled rice etc., is the (coarse) basic (vatthu)."

4. "Sense-impression" (or contact; phassa) is sixfold: through eye, ear, nose, tongue, body, and mind.

5. "Volitional thought" mano-sancetanaa, is according to Comy. identical with cetanaa, and refers here to kammic volition.

6. "Consciousness" (viññaa"na) refers to all types of consciousness.

7. The same phrases occur in the monk's reflection on his alms food, e.g., at
MN 2; http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
explained in Visuddhimagga, trans. by Naa.namoli, p. 31 ff.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/auth ... index.html
VSM I 89
    89. Alms food is any sort of food. For any sort of nutriment is called “alms food”
    (pióðapáta—lit. “lump-dropping”) because of its having been dropped (patitattá)
    into a bhikkhu’s bowl during his alms round (pióðolya). Or alms food (pióðapáta) is
    the dropping (páta) of the lumps (pióða); it is the concurrence (sannipáta), the
    collection, of alms (bhikkhá) obtained here and there, is what is meant.

    Neither for amusement: neither for the purpose of amusement, as with village
    boys, etc.; for the sake of sport, is what is meant. Nor for intoxication: not for the
    purpose of intoxication, as with boxers, etc.; for the sake of intoxication with strength
    and for the sake of intoxication with manhood, is what is meant. Nor for
    smartening: not for the purpose of smartening, as with royal concubines, courtesans,
    etc.; for the sake of plumpness in all the limbs, is what is meant. Nor for embellishment:
    not for the purpose of embellishment, as with actors, dancers, etc.; for the sake of a
    clear skin and complexion, is what is meant.

    90. And here the clause neither for amusement is stated for the purpose of
    abandoning support for delusion; nor for intoxication is said for the purpose of
    abandoning support for hate; nor for smartening nor for embellishment is said for the
    purpose of abandoning support for greed. And neither for amusement nor for
    intoxication is said for the purpose of preventing the arising of fetters for oneself.
    Nor for smartening nor for embellishment is said for the purpose of preventing the
    arising of fetters for another. And the abandoning of both unwise practice and
    devotion to indulgence of sense pleasures should be understood as stated by these
    four. Only has the meaning already stated.

    91. Of this body: of this material body consisting of the four great primaries. For
    the endurance: for the purpose of continued endurance. And continuance: for the
    purpose of not interrupting [life’s continued] occurrence, or for the purpose of
    endurance for a long time. He makes use of the alms food for the purpose of the
    endurance, for the purpose of the continuance, of the body, as the owner of an old
    house uses props for his house, and as a carter uses axle grease, not for the purpose
    of amusement, intoxication, smartening, and embellishment. Furthermore,
    endurance is a term for the life faculty. So what has been said as far as the words for
    the endurance and continuance of this body can be understood to mean: for the purpose
    of maintaining the occurrence of the life faculty in this body.

    92. For the ending of discomfort: hunger is called “discomfort” in the sense of
    afflicting. He makes use of alms food for the purpose of ending that, like anointing
    a wound, like counteracting heat with cold, and so on. For assisting the life of purity:
    for the purpose of assisting the life of purity consisting in the whole dispensation
    and the life of purity consisting in the path. For while this [bhikkhu] is engaged in
    crossing the desert of existence by means of devotion to the three trainings
    depending on bodily strength whose necessary condition is the use of alms food,
    he makes use of it to assist the life of purity just as those seeking to cross the desert
    used their child’s flesh,[footonote29] just as those seeking to cross a river use a raft, and just as
    those seeking to cross the ocean use a ship.

    93. Thus I shall put a stop to old feelings and shall not arouse new feelings: 33 thus as
    a sick man uses medicine, he uses [alms food, thinking]: “By use of this alms food
    I shall put a stop to the old feeling of hunger, and I shall not arouse a new feeling
    by immoderate eating, like one of the [proverbial] brahmans, that is, one who eats
    till he has to be helped up by hand, or till his clothes will not meet, or till he rolls
    there [on the ground], or till crows can peck from his mouth, or until he vomits
    what he has eaten. Or alternatively there is that which is called ‘old feelings’ because,
    ,
    being conditioned by former kamma, it arises now in dependence on unsuitable
    immoderate eating—I shall put a stop to that old feeling, forestalling its condition
    by suitable moderate eating. And there is that which is called ‘new feeling’ because
    it will arise in the future in dependence on the accumulation of kamma consisting
    in making improper use [of the requisite of alms food] now—I shall also not arouse
    that new feeling, avoiding by means of proper use the production of its root.” This
    is how the meaning should be understood here. What has been shown so far can
    be understood to include proper use [of requisites], abandoning of devotion to
    self-mortification, and not giving up lawful bliss (pleasure).

    94. And I shall be healthy: “In this body, which exists in dependence on requisites,
    I shall, by moderate eating, have health called ‘long endurance’ since there will be
    no danger of severing the life faculty or interrupting the [continuity of the]
    postures.” [Reflecting] in this way, he makes use [of the alms food] as a sufferer
    from a chronic disease does of his medicine. And blameless and live in comfort (lit.
    “and have blamelessness and a comfortable abiding”): he makes use of them
    thinking: “I shall have blamelessness by avoiding improper search, acceptance and
    eating, and I shall have a comfortable abiding by moderate eating.” Or he does so
    thinking: “I shall have blamelessness due to absence of such faults as boredom,
    sloth, sleepiness, blame by the wise, etc., that have unseemly immoderate eating as
    their condition; and I shall have a comfortable abiding by producing bodily strength
    that has seemly moderate eating as its condition.” Or he does so thinking: “I shall
    have blamelessness by abandoning the pleasure of lying down, lolling and torpor,
    through refraining from eating as much as possible to stuff the belly; and I shall
    have a comfortable abiding by controlling the four postures through eating four or
    five mouthfuls less than the maximum.” For this is said:
      With four or five lumps still to eat
      Let him then end by drinking water;
      For energetic bhikkhus’ needs
      This should suffice to live in comfort (Th 983).
    Now, what has been shown at this point can be understood as discernment of
    purpose and practice of the middle way.

    Footnote:
    [29] “Child’s flesh” (putta-maísa) is an allusion to the story (S II 98, SN 12.63) of the couple who
    set out to cross a desert with an insufficient food supply but got to the other side by
    eating the flesh of their child who died on the way. The derivation given in PED, “A
    metaphor probably distorted from pútamaísa,” has no justification. The reference to
    rafts might be to D II 89.
    DN 16 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .vaji.html
      Crossing the Ganges

      32. Then Sunidha and Vassakara followed behind the Blessed One, step by step, saying: "Through whichever gate the recluse Gotama will depart today, that we will name the Gotama-gate; and the ford by which he will cross the river Ganges shall be named the Gotama-ford." And so it came to pass, where the gate was concerned.

      33. But when the Blessed One came to the river Ganges, it was full to the brim, so that crows could drink from it. And some people went in search of a boat or float, while others tied up a raft, because they desired to get across. But the Blessed One, as quickly as a strong man might stretch out his bent arm or draw in his outstretched arm, vanished from this side of the river Ganges, and came to stand on the yonder side.

      34. And the Blessed One saw the people who desired to cross searching for a boat or float, while others were binding rafts. And then the Blessed One, seeing them thus, gave forth the solemn utterance:

        They who have bridged the ocean vast,
        Leaving the lowlands far behind,
        While others still their frail rafts bind,
        Are saved by wisdom unsurpassed.


8. That is he has become a non-returner (anaagaami) by eradicating the fetter of sensuous desire (kaamaraaga-samyojana) which, according to Comy. forms a unit with those other fetters which are given up (pahaanekattha) at this stage, i.e., personality belief, skeptical doubt, attachment to rites and rituals, and ill-will.

9. Pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feeling.

10. This refers to the attainment of sainthood (arahatta).

11. Sensual craving, craving for (eternal) existence, craving for self-annihilation.

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Re: SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

Postby Sam Vara » Tue May 15, 2012 8:21 am

Hi Mike,

Strong medicine. The force of the similes (especially for parents!) is such that they make our attempted analyses of text and meaning seem temporarily redundant. I wonder if this were the Buddha's partial intention. It is also curiously strengthening of faith and determination, in that anyone prepared to speak so definitively about such matters might be presumed to know what they are on about!

It puts some of the recent threads, and our cultural proccupations, with health and fitness and "good experiences" into sharp contrast. ("This latest miracle food makes me feel so alive and energetic!".....Meanwhile, on a desert trail somewhere in your cortex....)

And yet. In order to continue with the path, we must eat, and intend, and experience. The effect of this Sutta is to make me focus very intently upon how we do these things.

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Re: SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

Postby mikenz66 » Tue May 15, 2012 8:48 am

Thanks Sam,

Thanissaro Bhikkhu, in the talk series I referenced recently:
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=12375
said what fascinated him was how the Buddha has such a detailed description, including making jerky [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerky] out of the child's flesh.

Strong medicine indeed!

TB joked that by telling this story he was guaranteeing that there would be no dana in the bowl. And on a lighter note he mentioned a place in California that he often passes though that advertises "Alien Jerky" http://www.yelp.com/biz/alien-fresh-jerky-baker-2. He said that every time he passes though he is reminded of the Sutta.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

Postby mikenz66 » Wed May 16, 2012 7:26 pm

Comment from Bhikkhu Bodhi:

BB: A translation of the long commentary to this sutta is included in Nyanaponika, The Four Nutriments of Life [see posts above for the link].

Spk explains that the Buddha spoke this discourse because the Bhikkhu Saṅgha was receiving abundant almsfood and other requisites, and the Buddha wanted to place before the bhikkhus “a mirror of the Dhamma for their self-control and restraint, so that, contemplating on it again and again, the bhikkhus of the future will make use of the four requisites only after due reflection.” The opening paragraph is identical with that of 12:11.
See SN 12.11 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .nypo.html
and previous discussion: viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10845

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Re: SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 18, 2012 8:43 am

“It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment edible food should be seen.
Spk: Edible food should be considered as similar to son’s flesh by way of the ninefold repulsiveness: the repulsiveness of having to go out for it, of having to seek it, of eating it, of the bodily secretions, of the receptacle for the food (i.e., the stomach), of digestion and indigestion, of smearing, and of excretion. (For details see Vism 342-46; Ppn 11:5-26;
    Visuddhimagga XI 5. One who wants to develop that perception of repulsiveness in nutriment
    should learn the meditation subject and see that he has no uncertainty about
    even a single word of what he has learnt. Then he should go into solitary retreat
    and [342] review repulsiveness in ten aspects in the physical nutriment classified
    as what is eaten, drunk, chewed, and tasted, that is to say, as to going, seeking,
    using, secretion, receptacle, what is uncooked (undigested), what is cooked
    (digested), fruit, outflow, and smearing.
    ...
there ten aspects are mentioned, the additional one being “fruit,” i.e., the repulsive parts of the body produced by food.) A bhikkhu should use his almsfood in the way the couple eat their son’s flesh: without greed and desire, without pickiness, without gorging themselves, without selfishness, without delusion about what they are eating, without longing to eat such food again, without hoarding, without pride, without disdain, and without quarreling.


When the nutriment edible food is fully understood, lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure is fully understood.
Spk: When the nutriment edible food is fully understood: It is fully understood by these three kinds of full understanding: (i) the full understanding of the known (ñātapariññā); (ii) the full understanding by scrutinization (tīraṇapariññā); and (iii) the full understanding as abandonment (pahānapariññā ). Therein, (i) a bhikkhu understands: “This nutriment edible food is ‘form with nutritive essence as the eighth’ (see n. 18 [see: http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=10845#p164655]) together with its base. This impinges on the tongue-sensitivity, which is dependent on the four great elements. Thus nutriment, tongue-sensitivity, and the four elements—these things are the form aggregate. The contact pentad (contact, feeling, perception, volition, consciousness) arisen in one who discerns this—these are the four mental aggregates. All these five aggregates are, in brief, name-and-form.” Next he searches out the conditions for these phenomena and sees dependent origination in direct and reverse order. By thus seeing name-and-form with its conditions as it actually is, the nutriment of edible food is fully understood by the full understanding of the known. (ii) Next he ascribes the three characteristics to that same name-and-form and explores it by way of the seven contemplations (of impermanence, suffering, nonself, revulsion, dispassion, cessation, and relinquishment—see Vism 607; Ppn 20:4).
    Visuddhimagga XX.4
    Herein, the plane of full-understanding as the known extends from the delimitation
    of formations (Ch. XVIII) up to the discernment of conditions (Ch. XIX); for in this
    interval the penetration of the specific characteristics of states predominates. The
    plane of full-understanding as investigation extends from comprehension by groups
    up to contemplation of rise and fall (XXI.3f.); for in this interval the penetration of the
    general characteristics predominates. The plane of full-understanding as abandoning
    extends from contemplation of dissolution onwards (XXI.10); for from there onwards
    the seven contemplations that effect the abandoning of the perception of permanence,
    etc., predominate thus:
    (1) Contemplating [formations] as impermanent, a man abandons
    the perception of permanence.
    (2) Contemplating [them] as painful, he abandons the perception
    of pleasure.
    (3) Contemplating [them] as not-self, he abandons the perception
    of self.
    (4) Becoming dispassionate, he abandons delighting.
    (5) Causing fading away, he abandons greed.
    (6) Causing cessation, he abandons originating.
    (7) Relinquishing, he abandons grasping (Paþis I 58). (*)
      * “‘Contemplating as impermanent’ is contemplating, comprehending, formations in
      the aspect of impermanence. ‘The perception of permanence’ is the wrong perception
      that they are permanent, eternal; the kinds of consciousness associated with wrong
      view should be regarded as included under the heading of ‘perception.’ So too with
      what follows. ‘Becoming dispassionate’ is seeing formations with dispassion by means
      of the contemplation of dispassion induced by the contemplations of impermanence,
      and so on. ‘Delighting’ is craving accompanied by happiness. ‘Causing fading away’ is
      contemplating in such a way that greed (rága) for formations does not arise owing to
      the causing of greed to fade (virajjana) by the contemplation of fading away
      (virágánupassaná); for one who acts thus is said to abandon greed. ‘Causing cessation’
      is contemplating in such a way that, by the contemplation of cessation, formations
      cease only, they do not arise in the future through a new becoming; since one who
      acts thus is said to abandon the arousing (originating) of formations because of
      producing the nature of non-arising. ‘Relinquishing’ is relinquishing in such a way that,
      by the contemplation of relinquishment, formations are not grasped anymore; hence
      he said, ‘He abandons grasping’; or the meaning is that he relinquishes apprehending
      [them] as permanent, and so on” (Vism-mhþ 780).
Thus it is fully understood by the full understanding by scrutinization. (iii) It is fully understood by the full understanding as abandonment when it is fully understood by the path of nonreturning, which cuts off desire and lust for that same name-and-form.

i]Lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure is fully understood:[/i] It is fully understood by (i) the singlefold full understanding (ekapariññā), namely, that the craving for tastes arisen at the tongue door is the same craving that arises at all five sense doors; (ii) the comprehensive full understanding (sabbapariññā ), namely, that lust for all five cords of sensual pleasure arises even in regard to a single morsel of food placed in the bowl (for food stimulates desire in all five senses); (iii) the root full understanding (mūlapariññā), namely, that nutriment is the root for all five types of sensual lust, since sensual desire thrives when people are well fed.



When lust for the five cords of sensual pleasure is fully understood, there is no fetter bound by which a noble disciple might come back again to this world.
Spk: There is no fetter bound by which: This teaching is taken only as far as the path of nonreturning; but if one develops insight into the five aggregates by way of these same forms, etc., it is possible to explain it as far as arahantship.

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Re: SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

Postby Cittasanto » Fri May 18, 2012 6:51 pm

Hi,
"And how is physical food to be regarded? Suppose a couple, husband & wife, taking meager provisions, were to travel through a desert. With them would be their only baby son, dear & appealing. Then the meager provisions of the couple going through the desert would be used up & depleted while there was still a stretch of the desert yet to be crossed. The thought would occur to them, 'Our meager provisions are used up & depleted while there is still a stretch of this desert yet to be crossed. What if we were to kill this only baby son of ours, dear & appealing, and make dried meat & jerky. That way — chewing on the flesh of our son — at least the two of us would make it through this desert. Otherwise, all three of us would perish.' So they would kill their only baby son, loved & endearing, and make dried meat & jerky. Chewing on the flesh of their son, they would make it through the desert. While eating the flesh of their only son, they would beat their breasts, [crying,] 'Where have you gone, our only baby son? Where have you gone, our only baby son?' Now what do you think, monks: Would that couple eat that food playfully or for intoxication, or for putting on bulk, or for beautification?"

"No, lord."

"Wouldn't they eat that food simply for the sake of making it through that desert?"

"Yes, lord."

The one thing I take from this simile is just how powerful mindfulness of food should be, particularly as a lay person, our choices of what to eat. is it necessary to eat something just because we have the ability to get it, and appreciation to how we ended up eating and the effort gone through in order so we are not hungry.
This offering maybe right, or wrong, but it is one, the other, both, or neither!
Blog, - Some Suttas Translated, Ajahn Chah.
"Others will misconstrue reality due to their personal perspectives, doggedly holding onto and not easily discarding them; We shall not misconstrue reality due to our own personal perspectives, nor doggedly holding onto them, but will discard them easily. This effacement shall be done."

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Re: SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 18, 2012 11:43 pm

Cittasanto wrote:The one thing I take from this simile is just how powerful mindfulness of food should be, particularly as a lay person, our choices of what to eat. is it necessary to eat something just because we have the ability to get it, and appreciation to how we ended up eating and the effort gone through in order so we are not hungry.

Yes, it's a very strong message about the drawbacks of samsara in general, and the effort (by ourselves and others) expended to keep ourselves functioning.

:anjali:
Mike

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Re: SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

Postby mikenz66 » Fri May 18, 2012 11:46 pm

“And how, bhikkhus, should the nutriment contact be seen? Suppose there is a flayed cow. If she stands exposed to a wall, the creatures dwelling in the wall would nibble at her. If she stands exposed to a tree, the creatures dwelling in the tree would nibble at her. If she stands exposed to water, the creatures dwelling in the water would nibble at her. If she stands exposed to the open air, the creatures dwelling in the open air would nibble at her. Whatever that flayed cow stands exposed to, the creatures dwelling there would nibble at her.

“It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment contact should be seen.
Spk: Just as a cow, seeing the danger of being eaten by the creatures living in the places she might be exposed to, would not wish to be honoured and venerated, or to be massaged, rubbed, given hot baths, etc., so a bhikkhu, seeing the danger of being eaten by the defilement-creatures rooted in the nutriment contact, becomes desireless towards contact in the three planes of existence.


When the nutriment contact is fully understood, the three kinds of feeling are fully understood. When the three kinds of feeling are fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do.
BB: Spk explains the full understanding of contact in the same way as for edible food, except that contact is taken as the starting point for the discernment of the five aggregates. When contact is fully understood the three feelings are fully understood because they are rooted in contact and associated with it. The teaching by way of the nutriment contact is carried as far as arahantship.

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Re: SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

Postby mikenz66 » Sun May 20, 2012 10:18 am

“And how, bhikkhus, should the nutriment mental volition be seen? Suppose there is a charcoal pit deeper than a man’s height, filled with glowing coals without flame or smoke. A man would come along wanting to live, not wanting to die, desiring happiness and averse to suffering. Then two strong men would grab him by both arms and drag him towards the charcoal pit. The man’s volition would be to get far away, his longing would be to get far away, his wish would be to get far away [from the charcoal pit].For what reason? Because he knows: ‘I will fall into this charcoal pit and on that account I will meet death or deadly suffering.’

“It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment mental volition should be seen.
Spk: The charcoal pit represents the round of existence with its three planes; the man wanting to live, the foolish worldling attached to the round; the two strong men, wholesome and unwholesome kamma. When they grab the man by both arms and drag him towards the pit, this is like the worldling’s accumulation of kamma; for the accumulated kamma drags along a rebirth. The pain from falling into the charcoal pit is like the suffering of the round.

When the nutriment mental volition is fully understood, the three kinds of craving are fully understood. When the three kinds of craving are fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do.
Spk: The three kinds of craving are fully understood: The three kinds of craving are craving for sensual pleasures, craving for existence, and craving for extermination. They are fully understood because craving is the root of mental volition. Here too the teaching is carried as far as arahantship by way of mental volition.

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Re: SN 12.63: Puttamansa Sutta — A Son's Flesh

Postby mikenz66 » Mon May 21, 2012 8:34 am

“And how, bhikkhus, should the nutriment consciousness be seen? Suppose they were to arrest a bandit, a criminal, and bring him before the king, saying: ‘Sire, this man is a bandit, a criminal. Impose on him whatever punishment you wish.’ The king says to them: ‘Go, men, in the morning strike this man with a hundred spears.’ In the morning they strike him with a hundred spears. Then at noon the king asks: ‘Men, how’s that man?’–‘Still alive, sire.’–‘Then go, and at noon strike him with a hundred spears.’ At noon they strike him with a hundred spears. Then in the evening the king asks: ‘Men, how’s that man?’–‘Still alive, sire.’ –‘Then go, and in the evening strike him with a hundred spears.’ In the evening they strike him with a hundred spears.

“What do you think, bhikkhus? Would that man, being struck with three hundred spears, experience pain and displeasure on that account?”

“Venerable sir, even if he were struck with one spear he would experience pain and displeasure on that account, not to speak of three hundred spears.”

“It is in such a way, bhikkhus, that I say the nutriment consciousness should be seen.
Spk: The king represents kamma; the criminal, the worldling; the three hundred spears, the rebirth-consciousness. The time the king gives his command is like the time the worldling is driven towards rebirth by King Kamma. The pain from being struck by the spears is like the resultant suffering in the course of existence once rebirth has taken place.


When the nutriment consciousness is fully understood, name-and-form is fully understood. When name-and-form is fully understood, I say, there is nothing further that a noble disciple needs to do.”
Spk: Name-and-form is fully understood when consciousness is fully understood because it is rooted in consciousness and arises along with it. By way of consciousness too the teaching is carried as far as arahantship.


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